Michael Van de Ven: Building a Thriving Work Culture

A thriving work culture is the backbone of a team's success and happiness.

In this episode of 20/Happy Careers, Drs. Fred and Riyad sit down with Michael Van de Ven, Business Unit Director of Bausch & Lomb, to uncover how building a positive work culture and a supportive team can transform not only your workplace, but your entire career trajectory.

From the art of delegation to the discipline of long-distance running, Mike shares lessons on leadership, preventing burnout, and staying connected to your “why.” Whether you lead a team or work within one, you’ll walk away with practical strategies to create an environment where people feel valued, driven, and genuinely happy to show up each day.

Transcript

Fred H. Cho 0:00

Welcome to another episode of 20 Happy Careers with doctors Fred and Riyad, real conversations about the imperfect path to a happy career. name is Dr. Fred Cho and I'm here with my co-host, Dr. Riyad Chemist.

Riyad Khamis 0:13

Today we're gonna be exploring creating great work culture, building a dynamic team and how that can dramatically increase work happiness. we have a fantastic guest joining us today, which we're super excited about. Mike, is originally from London, Ontario, and he graduated from Western University in 2011 and quickly developed his experience in different fields of marketing and sales within the hospitality and consumer packaged good industries. In 2016, he joined Bosch and Lam as a territory manager, working closely with optometrists and opticians to build strong relationships and educate on contact lens innovation. In late 2017, he transitioned to his first leadership roles as regional sales manager while leading the development of Canadian training program for new hires. Over the next four years, Mike evolved his understanding and expertise in people management, marketing, key accounts and professional strategy through various projects, which led to promotions to the national sales director in 2011 and his current position of business unit director for Bosch and Law and Vision Care Canada in 2023, I met Mike. Seven or eight years ago now. And, It's been great. He's one of the most driven, people I know and I've learned a lot about leadership. so Mike, yeah. We'll pass it over to you. How are you doing?

Mike Van de Ven 1:27

I'm good. I appreciate you having me on the show. And, I do have to say up front that everything we talk about today is a reflection of my personal opinion. Not a reflection of Boston law, but I'm very. Excited to answer your questions and hopefully it's helpful for everybody that's listening in.

Fred H. Cho 1:44

Awesome. And here we like to start off with a tough question. So was there ever a time you didn't enjoy your work and what was the key to finding fulfillment? Again,

Mike Van de Ven 1:56

that question to start, especially after the way that, riyad pumped my

Riyad Khamis 2:01

Right.

Mike Van de Ven 2:02

introduction being the most driven, motivated person. but listen, there are times when, you're not getting the same satisfaction from your job. And the time that I can think of off the top of my head would be when I was outta university, I actually. Was a marketing manager for a bar and restaurant, and I did that for about three years. And I remember the first two years, you're outta school, you're making a pretty good salary. It's a great job just from a social aspect, people to this day still see how interconnected I'm in London just because I held that job. But in my final year, the industry was just changing over. The bar wasn't successful as it previously was. And when you're the marketing manager for a bar and restaurants, that was typically a popular place. And you can see it start to move in the opposite direction. It becomes challenging. And, part of the challenges, were just changes in the industry, but also, the group of people that typically came out with me earlier in my career, they were also entering different stages of their lives as well. So it's like when you try to host a big party and nobody shows up. but you have to sit there and it out till the end of the party. the few people that are there look around at you and wonder like, why aren't there more people here? So for me that was very humbling and, it was probably the least enjoyable part of my career that last year. However, one of the biggest mistakes that anybody can make in their career is. Holding on too long and not understanding when it's time to move on. And you know that was the first thing that made me realize, it's time for me to move on. And there's also, a better opportunity for me to reinvigorate myself with another opportunity. And that's actually how I reinvigorate myself with moving over to PepsiCo beverages on the sales side. And I went from the high of the bar to the low of the bar. And then going into PepsiCo and I was very successful in, my first couple months I had made an impact and the way it reinvigorated me was it brought my confidence up and it made me realize that I was enough as an individual contributor. And it really gave me that confidence to believe that I could do more and I could push myself a little bit further, which also transferred over into other areas of my life as well.

Riyad Khamis 4:35

Perfect. Yeah, I think that as you talked about a lot of the stuff, you take things from your experiences and even though you might be at the point where you're like, I think it's time to move on, you take little experiences from everyone and take to your next career there. And I've seen that as well as. Also, so let's hop into, the journey part of it and some of the stuff that we wanna chat about in the podcast. one of the things that I know you are great at, and I've learned from you as well, is creating a positive work culture and creating an environment, that people are excited to be in. So, first, let's start with that. So how important is a positive culture and what does a positive culture mean to you?

Mike Van de Ven 5:12

so a positive culture is everything essentially. one thing I've learned actually, and I'll quote, somebody that's an external mentor for me. he said when people jump from company to company, they're trying to find, grass that's greener on the other side, but ultimately it doesn't matter where you go. Every company is gonna have their challenges, different challenges, but there's always gonna be challenges. So when you have a strong culture where people listen to each other, they enjoy working with each other. And they truly believe in the vision for the company. Then when those challenges happen, are more likely to band together and still perform at a high level versus exit the business. And that's why it's so important. And the culture is one of the toughest things to build. it can be, 2, 3, 5, 10 year cycle to get really truly the right attitude. But that makes the big difference. And you want to know. When different challenges are happening that you can look to your left and you can look to your right and everybody's the same vision and is gonna have each other's backs. And that's really what generates that great culture that leads to the success that I've seen in my career.

Riyad Khamis 6:27

Yeah, and I've heard stories where people say, and this is actually associate optometrists were saying this, where two clinics that were the exact same, almost like how they opt. Rate how they charged hours. But they preferred the one where they go in and they just love it. They feel motivated, and more than money. That was the motivation there. It was just that, that positive culture. And when building that great environment? What qualities do we look for in people? and I think this is a big one for all of us when we're trying to figure out what people would fit in, what wouldn't. So is there any particular things you tend to look. For.

Mike Van de Ven 7:03

At least from my experience, you usually know if you're gonna hire somebody within the first 10, 15 minutes of an interview. And it's how they present themselves, their infectious personality, and especially in the sales world, that's so important. So I call it the X factor. And that's a skill that you're born with. It can't be

Riyad Khamis 7:19

Hmm.

Mike Van de Ven 7:19

just that. Being able to connect with people in general. So that's always a foundational piece that I think helps drive the culture'cause. When you're bringing that to the table internally, people like to work with you and collaborate, and then when you bring it out externally, customers wanna work with you and buy from you. So it ends up, working twofold,

Riyad Khamis 7:39

Hmm.

Mike Van de Ven 7:40

is one of the biggest things I look for. I love when a new person enters the business and they're just asking questions and they wanna learn, and that openness with the curiosity also leads to being coachable. So they're asking the questions and they're taking the answers, the guidance you're giving them Even if they are unsure if it's gonna work. They're like, I'm gonna try it. And the third thing is, that confidence and ability to actually go and try the different things when they're outta their comfort zone, those things make a huge difference. So when you bring all those different things together, you get someone that's really successful. And you ask this question, I'll just give a micro example. we had a newer rep. That started with us, just roughly at the start of the year, the first night we were at dinner, and I can see in my peripheral that this chair is scooching up beside me, and she sits down and she says, I looked at your LinkedIn and it said the first year you were a rep, you grew your territory by this amount. Can you tell me all the things that

Riyad Khamis 8:44

Oh wow.

Mike Van de Ven 8:45

And it was one of the most impressive

Riyad Khamis 8:49

They asked.

Mike Van de Ven 8:50

It's like she hunted me down. was confident enough to go and ask those questions and genuinely just wanted to learn. It really. just demonstrates exactly the qualities that you look for successful people. And I'm seeing it with, a few of our new reps right now, they feel the same way. And even though they're still in the learning phase, it's like you can see the success that they're going to have just because they have that attitude. It's very rarely that you see somebody that, carries that ambition, that curiosity, that coachability where they're not successful.

Riyad Khamis 9:25

Right. And I've met so many people that you've brought onto the team and I can kinda attest to how everyone is. Great. we've had this conversation before too, is sometimes what's on paper like resume isn't as important as the conversations that you have with them.

Mike Van de Ven 9:40

For sure.

Riyad Khamis 9:41

and I actually had an interesting example too. Recently. We were hiring, And the person came in and said, I looked things up and I realized that, you're from a small town con garden. And he's like, I used to work there at this, meat shop and I hadn't been to that meat shop since I was probably 14 years old and we used to get these beef peppers my brother and I all the time. and it kind of sparked this memory and we started talking about that. And it's like little things like that when people do their research a little bit and come up with these anecdotes, that personal connection becomes really important as well.

Mike Van de Ven 10:13

For sure. It makes a huge difference.

Riyad Khamis 10:15

So let's hop onto something that I've seen from you evolve as a leader, and that's gonna be delegation. Did delegation impact your career happiness and do you feel like it's something that helps with sustainability as well?

Mike Van de Ven 10:27

Yeah. delegation in general, I will say is always gonna be

Riyad Khamis 10:31

right.

Mike Van de Ven 10:32

when you're a high performer and there's different levels of improving with it, and there's different times where you're challenged with it. especially working in a smaller company, there's less people. So there's a lot that goes on your plate regardless of what position you're in. And part of being able to delegate is taking the time to teach one of your direct reports, a task that maybe they're not gonna do. Perfect the first time and then coaching them on it until it gets up to that level, that, you're comfortable fully delegating to in the future. But that takes time and there's fast timelines and things like that. So you really have to take that time as a leader to just understand, the sweat equity that you're putting up, up front to make somebody better that's on your team, but also allow you to delegate further. So when I think about my timeline. Coming in as a high performing rep into a leadership position for the first time, like was

Riyad Khamis 11:27

Right.

Mike Van de Ven 11:28

I had my high expectation, and the first thing that you're gonna realize is when you see behind the curtain. Not everybody does everything the same way as

Riyad Khamis 11:36

Hmm.

Mike Van de Ven 11:36

And there's you a certain bar that you have. Not everybody reaches that bar. People reach the bar in different ways, but ultimately you have a team that you have to bring to a working level of success. So there's a couple key milestones for me that I had. within my first year we did a stop start continue. So essentially, it's HR led. My team would all come together in a room and they get to say what I should start doing, stop doing and continue doing. That is very transparent

Riyad Khamis 12:06

Right

Mike Van de Ven 12:07

not involved

Riyad Khamis 12:07

direct.

Mike Van de Ven 12:08

like that, but like it was very humbling that was like the first milestone that helped me start to improve on that front. And then the external, factor that forced me into being a better delegator was actually COVID. So, during COVID. weren't able to go out with reps in the field, like reps weren't even allowed to go in the field for a while, You couldn't be there, you couldn't be in the trenches, you couldn't be rolling up your sleeves and trying to do everything. So it actually took my delegation skills to a different level. And even today, I have to stop myself and realize that can't do everything

Riyad Khamis 12:47

Right.

Mike Van de Ven 12:48

I can't do everything, and I have very capable people around me. So it's stopping yourself, trusting your team, and then. there's opportunities to train and develop, so that delegation becomes more organic just because of the people around you and their capabilities.

Riyad Khamis 13:04

That's really interesting so I'm assuming like when the stop doing, there was some constructive criticism I think a lot of people don't like hearing that stuff about themselves, but it's such an important thing to grow as a leader. How did you handle that?

Mike Van de Ven 13:17

Yeah, so it's funny, so I've developed some internal leadership training that I would do for a my management team or even, reps that are interested in getting to management eventually. And one of the things I show is the. All of the results from my first year as a manager and it looks like I'm just pumping my own tires, it's great growth rates, new program design, all these different things. And then I show the stop, start, continue and what was said by the team. And you can have these great results, but that doesn't necessarily make you a good leader. It makes you a high

Riyad Khamis 13:54

right.

Mike Van de Ven 13:55

when I got that, the results from the stop, sir, continue. It was the toughest, I'd say, week or two of my career to be humbled that way. But, I wake up every day, it reflected, the

Riyad Khamis 14:09

Right. Yeah.

Mike Van de Ven 14:10

and I can work to be

Riyad Khamis 14:12

Yes.

Mike Van de Ven 14:13

And even growing up playing sports, it was always the same thing, if a coach gave me hard coaching, I might be a little

Riyad Khamis 14:22

Right. Yeah.

Mike Van de Ven 14:23

but after two minutes. I come back and I always implemented the

Riyad Khamis 14:27

Right,

Mike Van de Ven 14:28

if you think that you know everything and you think that you're perfect at any level of your career, then you need a stop

Riyad Khamis 14:35

right.

Mike Van de Ven 14:35

to

Riyad Khamis 14:35

Yeah.

Mike Van de Ven 14:36

you're not so that it actually just opened up my thinking in general. And I think it's also really help me develop leaders in our business, that are first time, people managers, because I'm able to show them. Here's the mistakes I made as a first time manager. are your biggest watch outs, and share my experience. And I feel I've taken that first time leader in our business who might have started out, five outta 10 in leadership, and now they're starting out seven outta 10, and I say seven outta 10.'cause leadership, different things come up every single day that you just can't train on, right? It's just like you have to have experience going through all the different things. If I can at least start them at seven outta 10, and then they work themselves up to that eight, nine, and I don't think anyone ever reaches a

Riyad Khamis 15:27

Right.

Mike Van de Ven 15:28

leadership

Riyad Khamis 15:28

Yes.

Mike Van de Ven 15:29

but they set up for the most success. So what I will say in summary is it actually changed my whole thought process on leadership and it's really benefited future leaders that I've been able to evolve within

Riyad Khamis 15:41

Okay. And I think that's the big growth mindset. And that's how we grow, right? in terms of, some challenges that you've encountered at work, how did you and your team feel like you overcame them without getting too overwhelmed and feeling like this is too much?

Mike Van de Ven 15:57

you're seeing people. Feel the burnout because the job is already

Riyad Khamis 16:03

Yes.

Mike Van de Ven 16:03

it's, it's not for the

Riyad Khamis 16:05

Yes.

Mike Van de Ven 16:06

you that way. And I have a ton of respect for everything that our team does. But then when you add these other factors on top of it, people can burn out. So the biggest thing is one, just making sure that you're checking in on people. So you can call somebody just to check in on them. just see how they're doing. Hey, are you good? What does your schedule look like? What can we take off your plate? if you feel like somebody's overwhelmed, Hey, that deadline that's on Thursday, would it be better if you hand it in on

Riyad Khamis 16:33

Right.

Mike Van de Ven 16:33

you a little extra time. So it's like having that EQ to

Riyad Khamis 16:36

Yes.

Mike Van de Ven 16:37

what's going on with everybody, professionally and they'll share personally how they're doing as well. It allows you to manage to the person, which is helpful. and then the other thing within, managing burnout is. Just don't take for granted what people are

Riyad Khamis 16:54

Right.

Mike Van de Ven 16:56

really make sure that you're recognizing them because recognizing people gives them that extra rocket fuel

Riyad Khamis 17:02

Yes. Yes.

Mike Van de Ven 17:04

Find that person that's in the pocket where they're doing good work, but you can tell that like they're. working above capacity and just say, Hey, I noticed that you've been doing these things lately and I just wanna let you know that. Like I see you and I appreciate it,

Riyad Khamis 17:21

Yeah.

Mike Van de Ven 17:21

and just leave it. And it's so funny the reaction that you get from

Riyad Khamis 17:24

Okay.

Mike Van de Ven 17:25

because it's is that it? like you don't

Riyad Khamis 17:29

What else?

Mike Van de Ven 17:29

for it. It's no, I just wanna let you know. I see it and it's such a little

Riyad Khamis 17:32

Yeah.

Mike Van de Ven 17:34

that helps people get through the burnout. And then the last thing that's, I'll say from my personal experiences. you say I'm the most motivated, disciplined person and that's, I appreciate, but it can also be a fault because the expectations I set for

Riyad Khamis 17:49

Hmm.

Mike Van de Ven 17:49

I'm training for a

Riyad Khamis 17:50

Right.

Mike Van de Ven 17:51

we had a product launch last year. I'm training different new team members. There's always lots going on, and when you have a high standard for everything. You always want to, do the cliche, I'm gonna give 110%, what I've realized is the times where I felt burnt out in my career when I only have 60% left in the

Riyad Khamis 18:12

Yes.

Mike Van de Ven 18:13

But I'm trying to give 110%.

Riyad Khamis 18:16

Right on top of that. Yeah.

Mike Van de Ven 18:18

So the biggest thing that I want to communicate to, not just my team, but anybody that's going through burnout, is if you have 60% left in the tank and you're giving a hundred percent of that 60%, that is enough. And you need to make sure that you take care of yourself because. If you're trying to do what you know I've done in the past, it will lead to that burnout and it's gonna vary, right? Maybe on a Monday you're at a hundred percent. on a Thursday a couple things have

Riyad Khamis 18:49

Right.

Mike Van de Ven 18:50

professionally or personally, and you're at 60%. Just make sure you go out and give a hundred percent of

Riyad Khamis 18:54

Hmm.

Mike Van de Ven 18:55

and that's already gonna be light years ahead of most people in this world. And it's like just trying to understand what that looks like and also having the EQ as a leader to sense and understand. What different people are going through with their different

Riyad Khamis 19:07

Right.

Mike Van de Ven 19:08

so key to managing

Riyad Khamis 19:09

Yeah, that's a really good answer. honestly, I picked up some gems from that one is there any tips with reconnecting with the why or going back to that area? Anything else that you can think of on that part?

Mike Van de Ven 19:19

I'll give you two examples here. So making sure. That you're reconnecting everybody to a common goal and showing them that what we're doing has purpose. If people are working really hard and they can't see the end game or the cliche light at the end of the tunnel, then it's tough. So helping people. See three months, six months, 12

Riyad Khamis 19:40

Yeah.

Mike Van de Ven 19:41

and what success could look like and how what we're doing today is contributing to it is actually one of the biggest strengths of a good leader, in my

Riyad Khamis 19:50

Yes.

Mike Van de Ven 19:50

Now, from a just. Even like more of a functional standpoint. So one thing that I always try to do every year is I try to take a couple different courses to improve myself professionally and personally. Last year, one of the courses was through Duke.

Riyad Khamis 20:04

Hmm.

Mike Van de Ven 20:05

And it was leading, a high performing team through neuroscience, it talks about managing burnout with your team. And some of the different things that I've adopted with my direct leadership team is I have them block their calendars until 10:00 AM every single day.

Riyad Khamis 20:23

Hmm.

Mike Van de Ven 20:24

So our rule is they can get their deep work done and we're not booking Microsoft teams meetings or we're not booking meetings. So everybody has that eight 30 to 10:00 AM to really. Focus on their deep work when they're at max capacity. And it's insane to see the success and additional

Riyad Khamis 20:42

Hmm.

Mike Van de Ven 20:43

that people are able to provide from that and the positive feedback. So that really helps with burnout because if you have meetings gate to gate,

Riyad Khamis 20:50

Yeah.

Mike Van de Ven 20:51

And then all of a sudden you get off all your meetings and you're like, oh, I have to do my real job.

Riyad Khamis 20:55

Right.

Mike Van de Ven 20:55

with everything out, and then it ends up in, in burnout. So I thought that's been really effective. And then the other thing that I took from this course was, most people burnouts around the afternoon. What studies show is somebody goes for a walk. for 30 minutes, just disengage and block for 30 minutes. It actually refuels their brain with total creativity, which is going to bring them back to be more effective again for, the remaining hours of the day so that's something else that I've implemented with my team

Riyad Khamis 21:29

Interesting cue to everyone getting doodling pads and pencils and getting ready for pencil chaos. Sometimes when you have those dinners that you guys throw on, or if you actually go to a CE event and you learn and all of a sudden you're like, oh, I'm taking away dates of work. But it reinvigorates you and it's falling back in love with that why of like, Hey, this is why I entered this profession in the first place. This is what I can do and now I can take this to the next level. And it's something I've realized more and more as well let's now chat about something I think you are great at, in terms of routine and structure, how have you implemented that, or how has that helped you maintain your career as a high performer,

Mike Van de Ven 22:09

so routine and structure is everything. If you look at different top performers that I've worked with over the years. Some people are very entrepreneurial and great with relationship, They're like, I'm a sales rep, that's why I'm

Riyad Khamis 22:24

Right. Yeah.

Mike Van de Ven 22:25

kind of thing. And then there's some people that are. It's incredible and everyone's asking what's your secret sauce? And it's like I have a plan. I know where I'm going every week. I know what I want to talk about. I'm preparing for what they're potentially gonna say. And you see that organization in preparation and they're so successful just from being organized and being able to execute their priorities that are in front of them. And being burnt out and saying, I need to take time off you really always have to take a step back and say. Do I actually have a plan? And there's so many different things that you can do, to help manage that. there's a lot of the quick win tasks that like, they

Riyad Khamis 23:04

Right.

Mike Van de Ven 23:05

in your head, but once you write'em down, you just knock'em off and all of a sudden things are more manageable. When you're overwhelmed, if you actually just say it out loud and you hear it for yourself, it's show that you're actually gonna listen and say you know what? That sounds a lot less worse than it

Riyad Khamis 23:22

Okay.

Mike Van de Ven 23:23

It's only gonna take me 20 minutes to do that expense report. It's not gonna be an hour. I need to just get outta my own way and do it. And you knock it off your list. So there's little things like that you can coach people onto understand the difference between burnout and just making sure that you're creating better infrastructure for yourself.

Riyad Khamis 23:40

Yeah, and I think the routine part of it really, really important and lists. I'm getting better at writing lists. my wife's huge on writing lists and she tells me crossing things off a list is the most satisfying feeling, even if you've written your own list and on a weekend knock'em off. It's very satisfying, right? Just no matter how small it is let's talk a little bit about success early in your career. Is there something that you believed early in your career, what success looked like? And has that changed, like the definition of success?

Mike Van de Ven 24:11

Yeah, I would say that, your success is measured exclusively by your numbers.

Riyad Khamis 24:19

Hmm.

Mike Van de Ven 24:20

Now that's always gonna be a portion of it in sales. But you ask me what I'm the most proud of in my career when I first started, like even with Bosch and Long, I'd probably tell you territory grow, innovation that I was able to contribute to, things like that. But then you ask me now, and the thing I'm the most proud of is not just our culture, That I've been able to build with everybody and taking people not just through their professional journeys of, a rep to first time leadership or a head office position, but also being around a long enough with the team to actually grow up with'em in a way. See the personal milestones as well of, having their first child, getting

Riyad Khamis 25:05

Right.

Mike Van de Ven 25:06

different things like that. And one of the things that, people say is you're gonna leave a business one day and when you leave, you. Yeah, gonna forget you in a month

Riyad Khamis 25:17

Yes.

Mike Van de Ven 25:18

part of that is true. life always goes on no matter how important you think you are, but it is correct that like people won't remember the numbers, they'll remember how you treated

Riyad Khamis 25:27

Yes, yes.

Mike Van de Ven 25:28

So when you think about that impact that you can have on people professionally and personally, it's so great. And when you have a good culture and you're able to connect with. Direct reports, indirect reports, different things like that. And I've been fortunate enough that I've been able to hire 60% of the people in our business unit just with my various positions here. It's like you laugh with people on a personal level when something funny

Riyad Khamis 25:53

Yes.

Mike Van de Ven 25:55

you cry with them when you know a family member is

Riyad Khamis 25:58

Yeah.

Mike Van de Ven 25:58

and you celebrate with them, all their successes and those different things. Are really what I would

Riyad Khamis 26:06

Hmm.

Mike Van de Ven 26:07

success as I am now, in, year eight of leadership and, my 10th year within Bosch and law. And that is, truly a fundamental difference in my thinking from day one versus

Riyad Khamis 26:20

Yeah. And, you can always get better numbers, chase more territories. See more patients, but in the end, what are you gonna remember is the relationships and, and those milestones. That's a great answer. So one thing that I know you love that I've tried but I haven't been able to successfully do is running. I'm always watching from afar and just, impressed about how much you've accomplished so in terms of running, I think you love it. Or if you, if you don't, you can always tell me that as well, but I know there's lessons from running to career professional, personal life. What are some overlaps there?

Mike Van de Ven 26:54

And this is a great question. So recently I came back from a big run.

Riyad Khamis 27:00

Yes.

Mike Van de Ven 27:00

And, you come back from a big run and your endorphins are high, you're feeling good. And I actually, for whatever reason, I pulled up my laptop and I wrote a LinkedIn

Riyad Khamis 27:09

Right.

Mike Van de Ven 27:09

And the reason I wanted to share it was when I run, I do it for multiple reasons. Fitness is always, it has to be somewhere, in your goals and objectives when you're going out there and pounding pavement. also just for like mental clarity, I find, I move a hundred miles per hour all the time, but when I'm running, I am in just like a complete state of focus Zen. And my most creative thinking and reflection happens when I'm running, so that's why I enjoy it so much. But one of the things that I see with a lot of people is. They'll be like, ah, I see that you're running a lot. I want to get into running. Will you help me with a plan? I give them a little bit of a plan and two weeks later I'm like, how's everything going? Ah, I did it for a week and a half and you know what? My shins were hurting me. Or it was just like so hard to get out there. And of the biggest lessons, to take away from that is running the first three weeks to a month are terrible.

Riyad Khamis 28:21

Yeah.

Mike Van de Ven 28:22

It's tough. Your body's getting used to the wear and tear it's a grind to get out there. But then once you get past that point, you start to get to, the distances, the comfort, the adaptation where you start to get runners high, you start to get that clarity, the maximizing your endorphins. it always disappoints me that, some people don't get over that hump. Just with anything with life, you have to embrace the sweat equity

Riyad Khamis 28:49

Yes.

Mike Van de Ven 28:50

that's required knowing that like you're gonna get to a better spot. The next thing people say to me is, I see you're currently training for a marathon. I think I'm gonna try the same thing. And then they don't come up with a plan and they just go out there. And then same thing I ask about their progress. I ran 16 kilometers in my first two weeks and then I haven't really run since you have to write down what your goal is. You have to follow the plan, or else you sacrifice your success. And because there's no accountability. So those are two pretty core things. If everything in life was easy.

Riyad Khamis 29:26

Right.

Mike Van de Ven 29:27

everybody would

Riyad Khamis 29:28

Right. Doing it

Mike Van de Ven 29:29

rocket scientists. You know what I mean? So you have to go and you have to put in that sweat

Riyad Khamis 29:34

Hmm.

Mike Van de Ven 29:34

to get to the better

Riyad Khamis 29:36

One, I think there's a lot of parallels between that and your career and kind of get into setting goals and doing it. And two, it's just finding something where you can just switch your brain off. I was talking to a goalie coach who had coached in, the NHL, one thing that I ask is. What do you enjoy doing? Like outside of goalie? And he's like, sometimes it's nice to just have an escape and especially as goalies when everything's kind of pressure cooking at that age. He's like, there's a goalie that says I just like playing the piano, or I just like doing something unconventional even golfing, he said is a great one and it's just trying to get away and finding your focus

Mike Van de Ven 30:11

I think that's a great point. If I'm sensing burnout with somebody, I'll call them and I'll say, Hey, you like to do

Riyad Khamis 30:18

Yes.

Mike Van de Ven 30:18

this person likes to go to the gym. This person likes to go for a walk. This person likes to play the piano. Let's take time make sure that you're doing that before you start your day.

Riyad Khamis 30:28

Yes.

Mike Van de Ven 30:29

things will wait. Even if you gotta take, some time in the early morning when you're on the clock, just get it done.

Riyad Khamis 30:34

Mm.

Mike Van de Ven 30:35

So that's also a good thing to recognize as a leader. what are those things that person loves to do? And when you sense burnout, when you sense that there's challenges that are coming up professionally or personally for them that's, creating a heavier workload just make sure that you reinforce for them to take that time while they're getting themselves back on track. And it's something that, not only is effective, but it's so appreciated and builds into a positive culture.

Riyad Khamis 31:01

I think that you've been pretty good at is sticking to things. when things are challenging, like in the morning where you don't wanna get up, or let's say there's a work thing and you're like, Ugh, now I got so much on my plate. How do you get through those days?

Mike Van de Ven 31:14

There's two things that typically go through my mind. So Kobe Bryant was known for just just being so

Riyad Khamis 31:20

Mamba mentality.

Mike Van de Ven 31:21

working performer, right? Even though he was obviously so talented as well. And I guess, one year he had created this really intense summer training program and he is being interviewed about it and they're like, how do you get yourself out to do it? And he said, when I created that training program, I signed a contract with myself that I was gonna go and do this. So every time that my brain is telling me. you can't do this, you're tired, everything like that. I say, no, like I signed a

Riyad Khamis 31:47

Hmm.

Mike Van de Ven 31:48

So that's a big thing for me. And that's almost like writing down the

Riyad Khamis 31:50

Hmm.

Mike Van de Ven 31:52

I'm planning to run a full marathon in October, and I've run the distance before, but I have never done it in a race. And I'm not gonna lie, I'm

Riyad Khamis 32:00

Right.

Mike Van de Ven 32:01

but I've told people now and I've written down the goal and I have a plan and I'm like, you know what? I signed that contract with myself, so I'm gonna get up and do it. And then the other thing, it actually plays back into that, giving a hundred percent, even if there's 60% left in the tank, when you. Get up early and you go to the gym sometimes, you're like, I do not feel like being here

Riyad Khamis 32:23

Yes.

Mike Van de Ven 32:23

your first set of whatever you're lifting. You're like, that was a lot tougher than it was just last week. just being there and showing up is far greater than not going at all. When you're feeling like you don't want to get there, just bringing at least the best version that you can to just show up. And that's going to beat the majority of people, in the

Riyad Khamis 32:46

Yes, yes.

Mike Van de Ven 32:47

to goal setting and

Riyad Khamis 32:48

Yeah, showing up huge. And, and I think that's it. Okay. Let's, we're gonna end on a more of a retrospective question. If your younger self could see you now, what would surprise the most about your current career?

Mike Van de Ven 33:00

I appreciate and, always am humbled by the respect I get for my success at a young age, and also, my leadership and

Riyad Khamis 33:09

Yeah.

Mike Van de Ven 33:11

if you ask that, high school Mike, or even university Mike. If he was gonna be doing this position, he'd probably say I don't know.

Riyad Khamis 33:18

Yeah.

Mike Van de Ven 33:19

it's, different times of your life. And I always feel for, kids going outta high school and university, you just have to decide what you wanna do so

Riyad Khamis 33:27

Yeah.

Mike Van de Ven 33:27

you're not necessarily mature enough. So I'd say the biggest thing is I would look at myself today and be like, wow, you are enough.

Riyad Khamis 33:34

Yes.

Mike Van de Ven 33:35

You're more than enough. like you should have never doubted yourself. Never let people tell you that, that there's one path to

Riyad Khamis 33:43

Hmm.

Mike Van de Ven 33:44

There's many paths, and it could be a zigzag, it could be a loop back sometimes, but ultimately, if you get to where you want to get to, it doesn't matter how you did. And actually, sometimes the scenic route

Riyad Khamis 33:57

Yeah.

Mike Van de Ven 33:58

provides you with more experience along the way. And, the last thing would be just like being proud knowing that I've been a good leader to. Be the guy that opens the door for people and giving people the chance to show their worth and show what they bring to the table

Riyad Khamis 34:15

You've accomplished so much so you've gotten to probably a lot of where you envisioned yourself being. But even if people haven't, or if, as you said, there's. zigzags and you learn things along the way. you might be in this stage where you're still working towards that and that's okay as well. but being just positive about all the stuff you have learned and how you've brought to the table and starting those career baby. Steps to maybe where you want to get to. Those are some great tips that you've thrown in there as well. I think a lot of people will learn a lot and hopefully, I know I feel very motivated to go at next week, but I think a lot of people will feel motivated as well. So, We really appreciate, you being on and sharing a really valuable insight. I think that a lot of gems here and, I always enjoy really talking to you, so it's great

Mike Van de Ven 34:58

I really appreciate you having me

Riyad Khamis 34:59

Yeah, for sure. there's so much more that I wanted to pick at your brain, but I don't want to go on for three or four hours. I know we probably could. love to have this conversation again and I think every year something else comes up and we learn more and more. so love to have you again as well. and thanks for everyone for listening to 20 Happy Careers with Doctors Fred and Riyad. if you've found this helpful, please subscribe, share, or leave a comment. join us next time as we rethink success and what it means to love your work. And remember, we aren't just chasing workplace happiness. We're trying to create it step by step