Hindsight is 20/20: 3 Things We Wish We Knew in Optometry School

Join optometrists Fred and Riyad as the duo shares valuable lessons the hosts wish had been learned during optometry school. Recording from Corner Brook, Newfoundland, Fred and Riyad discuss essential career advice for current students and recent graduates.

Whether you're a pre-optometry student, current student, or recent graduate, this episode offers practical insights from professionals who've been in your shoes.

Transcript

Riyad Khamis 0:16

Welcome to another episode we're really excited to be here today again. So first, Fred, you're coming at us from a different location, where are you recording from today?

Fred H. Cho 0:25

I'm in a little town called Corner Book. It's actually the, like, second biggest town in Newfoundland. All of Newfoundland of the greater St. John's area. I'm actually

Riyad Khamis 0:37

Okay.

Fred H. Cho 0:38

And usually towns I go to are not like this, a lot more rural.

Riyad Khamis 0:43

Okay, amazing. And, and anything about Cornerbrook that stood out to you?

Fred H. Cho 0:48

Very beautiful man. I will say the roads are pretty wicked. In Toronto or in London, like it's a grid, right? It's very

Riyad Khamis 0:54

Right.

Fred H. Cho 0:55

But here you take a wrong turn,

Riyad Khamis 0:57

Yeah.

Fred H. Cho 0:57

going around the town. And I was like, why is that? And they said it's because it's such an old place. And they would have these wagon trails so they didn't think this, it would become a city like this. They didn't think about it. But now it rapidly developed and it's the kind of road that we get.

Riyad Khamis 1:14

Interesting. Today we're gonna talk a little bit about things we wish we knew in school. But why don't we start with our Monday fuel segment. So what's your Monday fuel this week?

Fred H. Cho 1:23

So I had my clinic here for the first time and it's always a crazy clinic, so I like to do a pick me up with some baked goods for the staff. And so I brought them some. one

Riyad Khamis 1:34

Hmm. I.

Fred H. Cho 1:35

saying, oh, it's a five star bar. This is my favorite. And I was like, sorry, what's that? And they're like, it's, it's a five star bar. apparently it's like this Newfoundland treat it's kind of like chewy, rich, square of graham cracker, condensed milk and chocolate. And I'm not like a coconut guy, but it was really

Riyad Khamis 1:55

Hmm.

Fred H. Cho 1:56

So I just love exploring the Newfoundland has their own like unique time zone, their own little treats, their own slang.

Riyad Khamis 2:03

Yeah. Oh, that's amazing. So you bring in the treats to the staff and while you meet them, and then everyone kind of enjoys them and gets to know you a little bit. Right.

Fred H. Cho 2:11

Yeah. Yeah. But I was like, why is it called Five Star Bar? And they're like, maybe'cause it has five ingredients or something. But then I asked people around the town and they're like, oh no, it's

Riyad Khamis 2:20

Okay.

Fred H. Cho 2:21

there was, in the fifties, there was this chocolate bar named five Star, that's this treat is, it tastes like

Riyad Khamis 2:29

Oh

Fred H. Cho 2:29

old chocolate bar. And that's why they call it but just, yeah. There you go. Like,

Riyad Khamis 2:34

Interesting.

Fred H. Cho 2:34

like it's, it's actually really good. Yeah.

Riyad Khamis 2:37

Interesting. Yeah. A lot of history there. That's good.

Fred H. Cho 2:40

What about you?

Riyad Khamis 2:40

I was getting ready for work and I was eating my like cereal and I got a call from my brother

Fred H. Cho 2:46

Yeah.

Riyad Khamis 2:46

and so I have a niece who's four years old. I'll shout her out. Her name is Leanna. Apparently she listens to a podcast every morning, like every time it comes out on the way to their daycare or on the way to school. And we didn't, hadn't released an episode, so she was calling and being like, I don't hear your podcast. And my brother's like, she needs to listen to it. On the way to that, she like, likes listening to your guys' voices and she's four. So I was like, oh, that's. Great motivation to kinda keep it at, keep at it. So yeah, I guess our, we have a number one fan, so that, that's really good. And

Fred H. Cho 3:19

to

Riyad Khamis 3:19

I'm guessing she's listening to this one as well. So I don't know if she understands what we're talking about, but she really likes it. So

Fred H. Cho 3:26

That's funny. Maybe she'll be a high achiever or something.

Riyad Khamis 3:29

yeah. Maybe she's interested in the field of optometry, so.

Fred H. Cho 3:32

That's funny. right, cool. So let's launch right into things that we wish we knew when we were in school. Maybe I'll kick this off. So the first is. I wish someone told me that finding optometry job is actually quite easy, that the job market is not as doom and gloom as people make it out to be sometimes.'cause I'm in Toronto, so that's one of the more saturated city and that's all you hear about. But actually having been in this market for, I

Riyad Khamis 4:03

Right,

Fred H. Cho 4:04

number of years now, it's really not that hard to find a job. finding a job that aligns with things you're looking for specifically. Maybe that's a little bit of a challenge sometimes. But I don't know. I, I just wish somebody told me to like, relax. Like, it's okay, you're gonna have a job. worry about will I find a job. It's more like,

Riyad Khamis 4:23

right.

Fred H. Cho 4:24

job do I want? What kind of optometry do I wanna practice?'Cause when I was given the first opportunity, I just took it. I didn't think much of it. Right. So, yeah.

Riyad Khamis 4:35

Yes. That's a really good one. And actually I think that it takes a lot of the, I see that too, is, is there's a lot of pressure of like finding something or am I gonna find one? But as an owner. There are a lot more jobs than there are optometrists out there. So you can be a little bit choosy and, and you have that you don't have to rush into it

Fred H. Cho 4:56

Yeah.

Riyad Khamis 4:56

exactly what you're saying, right. You can take your time and choose something you enjoy as well.

Fred H. Cho 5:00

Yeah. Did you work right after graduation? Did you wait to scope out things? Did you take a trip? What'd you do?

Riyad Khamis 5:07

Yeah, so for me it was a little bit of unique area because I knew I wanted to do something outside of just the regular primary care. That was one thing I did know and.

Fred H. Cho 5:16

Yeah.

Riyad Khamis 5:16

I did was following my passion of maybe doing sports or something along those lines. So I did a residency, which is different than most students. I think out of the 90 of us that graduated, probably a handful of us did a residency and even fewer did one in the states. Because you make a lot less money, right? You're getting offered all these like six figure jobs here in Canada. Residency barely pays you enough to to live. It was like the best experience because it's similarly, you don't always need to rush into. Now, I guess it depends on people's financial situations for sure. Sometimes you do need to start reading that money right away, but in my case, like it allowed me to really take a step back and in the grand scheme of things, as you know, like now that we're eight, nine years out of school, but one year doesn't really matter that much. In fact, that was my step back year where I could really figure out where I wanted to go in life. And for me, I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing right now if I didn't do a residency. So it was like an amazing experience. I learned a time and I still remember a time and it really allowed me to. Take that year and be like, okay, let me figure out where I wanna go with my practice and be choosy in terms of the next steps there. So yeah, no, for me, residency was awesome. It's not for everyone, but I really loved residency.

Fred H. Cho 6:32

long was your residency taken? Was it two years?

Riyad Khamis 6:34

No, it was just one. It was just one, but we got to do surgical procedures. I'm still certified and all that stuff. So yeah, it was, it was really cool. And, you know, that stuff might be coming now to Ontario, it seems like it might be on the horizon. So it's, it's kind of nice to be trained in that stuff as well.

Fred H. Cho 6:51

Yeah. I remember when I

Riyad Khamis 6:53

But,

Fred H. Cho 6:54

it was actually, I went on a trip, so I went back to Korea a few months. And that was probably like my

Riyad Khamis 7:01

hmm.

Fred H. Cho 7:02

last, long trip. But I'm glad I did that. Like some people just like went right into finding the work. For me, things panned out better

Riyad Khamis 7:10

Yeah.

Fred H. Cho 7:11

the time away and just surveyed the situation a bit better. If anything, I wish I took more time, you know, maybe like travel a little more, take a longer break. But I know at the time all our mindset was like, oh, we gotta just. Find a job and get to work. Like we spent all these years studying and now we get to actually

Riyad Khamis 7:30

Yeah, for sure.

Fred H. Cho 7:31

Do good work while getting paid. So we're all like ready to go. But I don't know, like I wish I embraced that slowness mindset a little more and took my time to really explore a little bit. But yeah.

Riyad Khamis 7:42

No, that's a great tip. I think there's always, you're gonna be working for the rest of your life, so sometimes taking a little bit of a time isn't a bad thing either. I'm gonna start with my number three as well, and it's gonna kind of piggyback what yours did, but probably something about networking. I found it so difficult to network as a student. I just thought like it was overwhelming going up to people talking. I, I enjoyed conversations, but in a room full of like a bunch of students who are all trying to like. Talk and get ahead and everything like that. I, I probably didn't network as much as I did or as efficiently as I did. And just a few tips I've learned is networking is not sending a bunch of random emails to people and hoping someone replies,

Fred H. Cho 8:27

Yeah.

Riyad Khamis 8:27

even if there's an interest. Something you're interested in. Like let's say kind of piggy back what you said was trying to find your interest. There might be a clinic where you really want to shadow or learn a little bit because they might be doing your interest The best way to know is actually. Spend time in that clinic. But and this doesn't necessarily just go for optometry students, even pre optometry students a lot of the times there'll be a generic email like, I'm really interested in your clinic. And you can tell it just copied and pasted and just change the name. Just trying to get experience. Right. What I would suggest is hone in on a few areas that you're really interested or a few clinics you're really interested in, and instead of just sending like generic emails, maybe over the summer. Try to go visit, like what you just said, like you brought baked goods for the staff, right? If you're really interested in that clinic, go ahead and bring some tidbits and like when the doctor's in and just say, this is what I'm really interested, I really wanna shadow or spend time in the clinic, it'll be like really valuable for you.

Fred H. Cho 9:29

Yeah.

Riyad Khamis 9:30

Then it's really hard for someone to say no in person, right? Like when you bring snacks, like having to have someone gonna say no to you, right? Whereas via email, most likely they'll just hit delete and move on to the next one. So, so that's a really good, good tip there. It's just like, you know, networking doesn't have to be like a generic thing where you're just trying to talk to anyone. But, but find people that you enjoy that feel like that might connect with you, that you're interested in and really make an effort and, and get to know them.'cause most people are really open to get, when you get to know them,

Fred H. Cho 9:59

yeah. I really, I really love that. And I think what you're saying is, don't send out generic networking requests everywhere. a few that you are really interested in and then put in the effort, put in the work.

Riyad Khamis 10:11

Yeah,

Fred H. Cho 10:12

I know before you've brought up you mentioned that as a student don't have as much to offer compared to if you're actually working as an optometrist usually it's kind of a one-sided thing.

Riyad Khamis 10:25

Right.

Fred H. Cho 10:25

say students navigate that challenge? I mean, you brought up a point of putting in more effort. But like, do you have any advice for students to overcome that difficulty?

Riyad Khamis 10:36

Yeah, that's a good question. So yeah, like when you're a student, you're not gonna bring a lot to the optometry side of things, right? Like, you are going in there to learn, which is fair. But if you can bring stuff to that clinic, like. I, I think little things when people go above and beyond, right? Like if the staff needs help with like you've put away a file or you help with, with something that they're doing, or maybe you greet a patient or, or maybe chat with a patient. And then if it's just gonna be more of like, this clinic is something you're interested in and let's say it is gonna be maybe like a few more hours there, or who knows, it might lead to a summer job.

Fred H. Cho 11:12

Yeah.

Riyad Khamis 11:13

also like. You're there to learn, but don't think of it as like they have to give to me all the time. Right. They have to provide information like I'm here to, but ask you questions to help out when you can. So in optometry school I worked at a clinic near the optometry school and I did everything right. I did the front desk staff. I was answering phones. When I got brought in, they had a full staff and then they just had a bunch of staff turnover. So I had to do everything. I had to learn how to answer phones. Sometimes I was in the dispensary by myself, just doing all of their glasses, sales,

Fred H. Cho 11:47

man.

Riyad Khamis 11:48

doing all their files, helping clean up around the clinic. It was the best experience because I know how it felt to be that staff member that was by themselves trying to figure things out and like and, and so now I'm more appreciative towards my staff, but I also know how an optometry clinic runs and operates, which makes it more valuable as an owner as well. So doing things like that and, and to this day, I really appreciate when staff's busy and they're just handling a bunch of stuff because I know how hard it is as well.

Fred H. Cho 12:16

Yeah. Yeah. And just to piggyback off of that and this is true for career progression as well, not just for networking as a student, it pays to be attentive to what they need, what the other person need. So

Riyad Khamis 12:33

Yeah,

Fred H. Cho 12:33

think a

Riyad Khamis 12:33

exactly.

Fred H. Cho 12:34

a lot of students approach it like, Hey, I want this, I want that. I wanna work with you. is what I would like

Riyad Khamis 12:41

Right,

Fred H. Cho 12:42

But maybe flip the script and think about what they want, this is what I can bring to the table. This is what I can do for you. And I think

Riyad Khamis 12:51

right. Exactly.

Fred H. Cho 12:52

it a lot easier for the person that you wanna network with to say yes. Like, oh yeah, this person sounds really interesting. They have a lot to offer. more likely to say

Riyad Khamis 13:02

Yeah. And that mindset will lead to like a ton more opportunities too. That's a really good point. Like that is what opens the door to opportunities, right? When you bring something.

Fred H. Cho 13:12

I do find that, especially with career progression too, it's all about connections and networking. Like I know you agree with this as well. Like it's all about

Riyad Khamis 13:21

Yes.

Fred H. Cho 13:22

good out, good work out there and helping other people and naturally more opportunities come to you. Like that's just how it is. And I wish I knew that like even earlier.

Riyad Khamis 13:34

Yeah, that, and I think something that you are really good at as well, and that like I've incorporated as well, is when you meet someone and, and you're interested in terms of learning from them set a date to do a Zoom call or a coffee or something, because if you don't, and you let it go like a month and then you reach out, they're gonna probably forget. But if you try to make the effort, and if it doesn't work, it doesn't work. But try to make a set. If you have a face-to-face interaction, virtual or in person, then that connection's like cemented, right? It's something that's cemented there and it's gonna open up a lot of doors in the future as well.

Fred H. Cho 14:08

Oh, for sure. That's a great tip to just go and have that coffee session or just take 30 minutes to have a virtual meeting. It goes a long way, I think, and

Riyad Khamis 14:17

Yeah.

Fred H. Cho 14:18

actually it's a related point off of what we're talking about. My second thing that I wish I knew is that soft skills. technical skills when it comes to career progression.'cause you know, we're about eight, nine years outta school now, and I find that the most successful people, colleagues that I look around, they're, I mean, they may be good technically too. I'm not saying they're not, but they definitely have great people skills. This is what I see. So in school, they teach you the technical side of things, how to become an optometrist. But they don't actually teach you the soft skills, the leadership, communication, and networking, right? I mean, the school's job is not per se to like teach you those soft skills, I guess. I wish I recognized that earlier and I wish I invested it much earlier than I did, and I think that would've propelled my career earlier, even fast.

Riyad Khamis 15:15

Right. And that's a great point. Like, I think that's, well, soft skills are everything, right? Like and part of it is you learn it because you're outta school and you're out, you're interacting with more people. But you can definitely start developing in school and that's something that like becomes important and communication just massive, right? Like no matter how much, you know, it doesn't really matter if you can't communicate it. And that, and that goes for calculus for a lot of it there as well,

Fred H. Cho 15:39

but also things like leadership skills too. Like if as, as a business owner yourself, like you have to lead a team, you have to have your vision and translate that to the day-to-day operations. I mean, can you

Riyad Khamis 15:50

right? Exactly. Yeah.

Fred H. Cho 15:51

that and like, how much better would've been if you had, you even start earlier, right? Learning more about these leadership skills. A lot of it is like

Riyad Khamis 15:59

Yeah.

Fred H. Cho 15:59

right?

Riyad Khamis 16:02

Yeah, practice management and that stuff is really important. And that's something that, yeah, that's a good one. I wish I would've known a little bit more about as well. I agree. And, and I think that like, we like to blame the school all the time and they like the school and she should retreat, but also like. On your own, like trying to maybe join more clubs or lead stuff or things like that. That would be probably my second one as well, I wasn't someone that was super involved in things. Which, which is okay. Like I think everyone has their own way of getting through school. Right? And I think though that, just remembering those four years of your life or wherever you're in school, you're never gonna get those back, right? Like your life is always gonna be different.

Fred H. Cho 16:45

Yeah.

Riyad Khamis 16:46

once you're at a practice, you don't have the school, school is the best time. You get so many opportunities to explore different areas, be in clubs, learn leadership, but also just interact with people your age that don't have the pressure of making money and just needing to do that. So it's such a unique opportunity and I. I think probably if I went back to told, tell myself, I'd be like, you maybe join a few more things that get involved a little bit more because like

Fred H. Cho 17:14

Yeah.

Riyad Khamis 17:14

it's, it is cool. You get to meet people, you'll get to do a lot of experiences and you'll get to learn a lot of cool skills as well. And if it's not for you, then. Then whatever, don't do it. But yeah, I think just trying to take advantage of all the events. Sometimes they have speakers and sometimes they're like, oh, I could go to that speaker, but it's like early in the morning or it's late at night and I wanna watch this instead and I'm just gonna skip out. And, and I would say just because once you're graduated, it's hard to make time for a lot of that stuff. So yeah, take advantage of it when you can and, and people are there to help you there as well. So.

Fred H. Cho 17:48

Yeah. And I would add that all those, like little presentations that you go to hear these speakers or these events that you go to, that's also like developing soft skills. Like you're putting yourself out there, you're running into people.

Riyad Khamis 18:04

Even just taking a another step from the working perspective, like the friends you meet and the people you meet. Are gonna be probably friends for your whole life, hopefully. And that's not something, once you're outta school, as you know, it's tough to meet like those people that you're gonna connect with. It's such a great area to meet people, meet friends, and those are gonna be your colleagues and everything for, for the rest of your life. So really kind yeah, put, put in effort as well with, with that stuff too,

Fred H. Cho 18:30

Yeah,

Riyad Khamis 18:31

the social aspect of it.

Fred H. Cho 18:32

such a great point. I wanna repeat that because

Riyad Khamis 18:34

go ahead. Yeah.

Fred H. Cho 18:36

you meet in school, they're gonna be great friends and colleagues for the rest of your life. And I wish I also knew that when I was in school, because there are people that I connected with, like called classmates that I reconnected with like many years after school. Like recently, in fact. I wish, like, oh, I wish we had a budding friendship even from back in school. But now I'm just getting

Riyad Khamis 19:01

Yeah.

Fred H. Cho 19:01

Understand the joy of having those friendships now. And the way you do that is I think, yeah, like make the best of your time there. Go join clubs, meetings, go to more events, and because it, it's really a special time, like you said,

Riyad Khamis 19:16

yeah. And then let's jump into the last tip here. You can go ahead and take the last one off here.

Fred H. Cho 19:22

Okay. Well, I would say that graduation is just a starting line. Right? I wish somebody told me that as well. I think. Sometimes the path is clear, like maybe you wanna do specialty contacts or pediatrics, low vision. There is a clear path to pursue that niche, but not everyone identifies with those preset path already. And I was certainly one of those people that I just, none of those niche really lit me up. But. realize now that graduation is really just a starting line, and see all these colleagues in optometry who have built unique careers and all of it happened after graduation. So travel optometry, I mean sports optometry,

Riyad Khamis 20:16

for sure.

Fred H. Cho 20:18

yeah. A 3D printing business that I wrote about. For optometry tools. I mean, there's so many things out there. People are doing cool things. And a a lot of it is just after school, after you graduate, you pick up new skills as you go. So I wish I didn't stress out so much about, oh, I gotta find my niche now. Like I need to figure out the rest of my life and my professional career before I leave school.

Riyad Khamis 20:39

I was thinking about this too, a few percentage of people who their first job is gonna be their last job, right? Like, so it's not gonna, as you said, it's not the be all, end all your first position. It's there to help you figure out if that's, if it is, that that's perfect and that you know that, but if it isn't, then it, it'll teach you what you need to know for the next position there as well, or your next area, whether. Whether that's, as you said, like going into a unique area, going into business, like knowing that is important.

Fred H. Cho 21:07

Yeah, for sure. And what's your last tip that you wish knew?

Riyad Khamis 21:11

Before I launch into that, so Fred was just featured in the Canadian Association of Optometry. An email and just kind of their newsletter, talking a little bit about travel optometry so yeah, no, that was amazing. It was a great read and, and it, I believe you can just check that out and it's just on your website as well, and people can check that out and it, all these great articles are on there to do some further learning as well.

Fred H. Cho 21:33

Thanks for the shadow. Yeah, it's, I did, I didn't even expect it. Like they have this member insight section where they highlight members that. Do work outside of their exam room. And I didn't get any like, email for them to confirm or anything. Like they, it just came out. I actually heard it through a friend of a friend and I didn't even know, but thanks for the shout out and it feels really good to be recognized for the work I do outside of the exam room.

Riyad Khamis 21:59

For sure. Yeah, definitely making a difference there. So my last tip, actually, I'm gonna take a different tour detour on, on some of the stuff we've been talking about here is actually gonna be on finance and financial literacy. I I know I heard the stat saying, and, and I was a little bit lucky'cause my dad was in the finance industry, but he was guiding me a little more than, than a lot of times in students. But just learning to invest, learning your RSPs, your TFSAs, even putting in a little bit right? When you're early in your twenties, if you start to do all that stuff, it's gonna probably worth. Double than if you started later on in life in your thirties when you start to work. So even if you learn the basic knowledge of kind of how those different systems work even if you don't have a lot of money, if you can invest like a few hundred dollars a month or something, put stuff through through that and just try to build those up with the compounding interest and, and learning a little bit about. Like ETFs or just like all those, like stocks, things like that. So. Financial literacy, I think is like super critical. And again, my dad helped me, but I didn't understand it as much as I do now, and I wish I would've understood a little bit more. So that's going to be something that I would, I would recommend just reading a book on it, learning about it, listening to a podcast, but really learning about finances.

Fred H. Cho 23:18

your dad's an accountant, right? Is that right?

Riyad Khamis 23:22

Yeah. He, yeah, by trade, he's an accountant. Yeah.

Fred H. Cho 23:24

Yeah, I remember you had a lot of stuff going on with the buying like properties and clinic ownership, and I remember him helping you out a lot with a lot of that stuff as well. But you're right. Like he, it's something that,

Riyad Khamis 23:37

Yeah.

Fred H. Cho 23:38

learn by doing. That's the fastest way to learn this financial literacy. And it

Riyad Khamis 23:42

Right.

Fred H. Cho 23:43

just taking like smaller steps and like understanding how. yeah, the investing works and what kind of accounts you're supposed to invest in. but you can only learn by really doing it yourself. So I love that tip about getting started early. Yeah, I wish I started early too. I think it was like a year out, I think is when I actually started. even

Riyad Khamis 24:05

Yeah.

Fred H. Cho 24:06

even about like putting a hundred dollars here and there. It's more just learning the concept as you invest and you learn. And you make mistakes when you have less to lose, right?

Riyad Khamis 24:18

Right, exactly. Yeah. And the power to compound, like you start early and, and it. Gonna, it's gonna continue to multiply. So that, that's really important to, and I don't think a lot of people do understand, especially in optometry school. Maybe, maybe this is I know for me too, you're so focused on the science and getting through school, the finance side is like put on the back burner and it's not your main focus, but Sure. As you said initially, as you understand it, it'll see, it'll you'll be thankful later for it. Right.

Fred H. Cho 24:45

yeah. Well I think that's really good. Like these are some solid tips for the students and you know, it's, it's always like, in hindsight it's 2020 as they say. So, yeah, just to close the episode here is there anything you would do differently if you could go back to being a student?

Riyad Khamis 25:03

That's a great question. There's a few things that we talked about, like being more involved, like knowing the friendships more, getting more into the, the financial part, maybe learning, but overall not really. Like I think for me, the residency was really good. I. Thing. I think, I don't know if I would be where I am if I didn't decide to do the residency. And then it allowed me to really tailor the career I wanted and school really set the foundation for that. And so there's always little things, but overall I think I did have a really good experience in terms of figuring out where I'd wanna go in life through optometry, and I looked at everything from a, you know, be like a a glass half full, even back in the optometry school. So for me it was always like this untapped potential of things I could do, and that really excited me through school. So it really helped me build the path that I wanted. And yeah, there could be a few more turns a little differently, but I think it, it really kind of. Where I ended up tailoring my career is something I love doing and, and so that part of it I, I do really appreciate there as well.

Fred H. Cho 26:05

Yeah, and you're

Riyad Khamis 26:07

How about yourself?

Fred H. Cho 26:07

Positive person I know as well. So I know you've always had a lot of passion for things, and so I'm sure that has also helped your career as well.

Riyad Khamis 26:16

And how about yourself?

Fred H. Cho 26:18

For me, I would INVEST much more into relationships, like colleagues,

Riyad Khamis 26:25

Yes.

Fred H. Cho 26:26

and professors. I would've like lab TAs. I would've just gotten to know them a lot more. I think as a student at the time, I had a small circle of friends and I just kept to them I didn't join much clubs even at the time, all I was thinking about was trying to absorb all the optometry skills and then graduate that the real life game begins. Right.

Riyad Khamis 26:51

Yes.

Fred H. Cho 26:52

But in hindsight, I really wish I spent more time and energy into relationships around me.

Riyad Khamis 26:59

I agree with that. Relationships are super important and, I would say though, when you're in it and you're studying like late nights and you're just hammering away at school I know that that part of it can be challenging. You're just stuck in it. But yeah, I agree. Relationship's so important and such a great time in, in life to take advantage of as well, so. That was a great episode and I think that it shared some great insight. If any students have any interest in reaching out or questions, we're always open to chatting as well, and, if everyone wants to connect, feel free to connect and we'll definitely have a few students on the podcast. I think that would be valuable as well to hear it from directly from their perspective.