From Dentistry to Coaching: Dr. Laura Brenner

After 10 years of practicing dentistry, Dr. Laura Brenner made a bold decision: she left clinical practice to become a certified professional coach, blogger, and speaker.

In this conversation, Laura shares her journey from burnout to fulfillment. She opens up about being a perfectionist and people pleaser, and how she now helps others design careers on their own terms.

We discuss:

• Why empaths in healthcare struggle with boundaries
• The power of creative side projects
• Practical advice for professionals feeling stuck
• How to give yourself permission to change

Laura's message is clear: change is possible when you stop waiting for permission and start taking action.

Laura's Website: https://www.lolabeescareercoaching.com/

Transcript

Speaker 0:16

Today we have a fantastic guest. After dreaming of becoming a dentist her whole life, Dr. Laura Brenner learned that dentistry wasn't a match for her. She practiced for 10 years before leaving clinical dentistry to become a blogger, a speaker, and a certified professional coach. After her blog post 10 Reasons, your Dentist Probably Hates you too, went viral. She began connecting with dental professionals around the world who wanted more from their careers. This inspired her to create lullaby career coaching, to help dental professionals design their careers on their terms so they can create joyful, balanced lives. Welcome Laura.

Speaker 2 0:56

Thanks for having me, Fred.

Speaker 0:58

Yeah, so nice to connect and I'm so excited to talk to you about all these things. The segment that we like to start here is called a Monday Fuel. So it could be something like simple as a cup of coffee that gave you that little boost on a Monday, and I'll just lead with that here. I'm traveling for work a lot and I was driving and I finally saw a moose for the first time. I don't know if you've ever seen one.

Speaker 2 1:26

I have,

Speaker 1:26

yeah. Okay. Yeah, so I didn't know how big they were. And the belly was pretty much all I could see, and they were like higher than that. Yeah. Just a neat little moment of, oh, I get to travel for work.

Speaker 2 1:39

That's amazing. I'll share that. Um, yeah, Monday boost for me is remembering to take a little bit of time for myself in the morning before I start in on my computer for work.

Speaker 1:53

And what made you wanna do that?

Speaker 2 1:55

I actually have to force myself to do that because I'm sure you would understand this is we tend to be overachievers and we wanna grind our way through our work. And what I've realized is that I still always burn myself out because I'm, that overachiever is still inside of me many years after quitting dentistry. So I have to. Remind myself and every once in a while I get off track. But this Monday, it's just getting back on track for taking care of myself. So I'm an empath. That's a quality that a lot of, uh, I would say medical professionals and dentists who are, who feel really burnt out. We are empaths, so we're carrying a lot of the, our patients and everybody else's feelings and energy. So sometimes we don't pay attention to ourselves. We just ignore what we think. So it's a good exercise to really connect with what is. What is on? What do I think today? What's important to me? What can I plan for my day, and how can I make sure that I'm centered and balanced?

Speaker 3:00

That's so important. And when I was working like five, six days a week and grinding away, I never had the chance to even ask those questions, which are really important to ask, but you're just not in the right mental space to even think about it.

Speaker 2 3:17

Yeah. And we put ourselves last all the time. So it's, it is a really good exercise in willpower and diligence to stick with it.

Speaker 3:30

I really love that you brought up creating space for yourself in the morning.'cause starting the morning off right is really important for the rest of the day as well. And something that I recently started doing. Something called like a five minute rule. So if something is really tough, then just set the timer for five minutes and just do that. So for example, I struggle with meditating for a long time. I'll try 30 minute meditation, and then after a week I don't do it. But then when I started just doing five minutes, I'm like, okay, just use it for five minutes. Then I actually found myself doing this in the morning. Is really, and it feels really good even if it's such a short amount of time.

Speaker 2 4:13

I love that. There's a book called The Slight Edge. I don't know if you've ever heard of it. I

Speaker 4:18

will check it out.

Speaker 2 4:19

I love it. Tell about it's, um, the authors Jeff Olson and the, the slide edge is all about doing things in small steps and it's the fall behind change and change really happens through small. Achievable. Easy to do, easy not to do steps. So the five minutes is amazing.

Speaker 4:41

I love that. I will definitely check that book out. Just curious, like how do you get new ideas? Is it reading books? Is it like blogs, YouTube, like how do you get that?

Speaker 2 4:51

Sometimes it's books, but I really love podcasts. That's what I've recently found. For a while. I was also getting audio books. I've been a self-help. Junkie for many years, probably since I was 15. And my, I was in high school and my mother bought me the Tony Robbins personal power cassette tapes. So that shows you how old I am.

Speaker 5:13

I remember those.

Speaker 2 5:15

It was amazing and I loved it, and I loved learning from him. So that started me off when I was 15. So now I love podcasts and listening to. To things that really inspire me and make me intentional about how I'm living. Living.

Speaker 5:34

I really love that word too. It's a big part of the reason why I quit initially to go into freelance optometry was to live more intentionally, and I realized that when I was really busy, I wasn't being intentional about how I'm spending my time. And I think a lot of us in the medical professionals could benefit a lot from taking a moment each day to really be intentional.

Speaker 2 6:02

Absolutely. It's so important and it's, again, it's easy not to do.

Speaker 6:07

Yeah. And a hundred percent, and you brought this up earlier, but in medical professionals, like it's our job to put patients first. That's literally, and that's what we should do, of course. But it ends up putting ourselves second every single day. And so it is important to have these resets, isn't it? To have moments to really think about what you need.

Speaker 2 6:32

I like to think of it as the a win-win where we're taught to put our patients first so they win. And sometimes it doesn't matter if you're losing to make sure they win. So, but if we get to win too, if we draw boundaries and protect ourselves and take care of ourselves, they can still win. So

Speaker 6:51

yeah,

Speaker 2 6:52

I liked, I like to think of it that way now.

Speaker 6:55

And that's, I love that abundant mindset too, right? It doesn't have to be like a zero sum game, and I think that's a good place to actually transition to understanding your story from the very beginning. So you once thought that you had your life completely planned out, right? Dentistry felt like the safe, perfect choice. When did you first sense that wasn't maybe the case?

Speaker 2 7:19

So I really liked dental school. I think some of us are born to be students, so we can make the most out of that experience, and I couldn't wait to get out into the real world. But then once I got out into the real world and I didn't have that safety net, it was very stressful. So immediately it felt really scary and really hard, but I had a lot of grit. I think a lot of us who go into dentistry or similar fields, optometry, we have grit. We work hard, and so I knew that the beginning of dentistry was gonna be hard, so I really put my head down and focused and worked and trusted that it was gonna get easier and I was gonna get better. And then at three years I was better. It did get easier. But I wasn't feeling better. I was feeling really anxious and depressed and always stressed out, and I just, I really hated the way I was spending my time at work. It was just. It was miserable for me. So that three years in it, I attribute that to you. Give yourself a chance, you're gonna grind through the hard times, and then when things still feel hard, you start to lose hope a little bit. And then you put your sights on the five year mark and then five years hit. Hits and you're like, this is still, yes, I'm better. It's easier, but it's not, and I don't feel bettering.

Speaker 8:47

Was there a particular aspect that really was difficult in particular?

Speaker 2 8:54

I was a people pleaser. And then it makes you a perfectionist. So you end up putting so much pressure on yourself to make everything perfect for everyone else, that you jump over that line of that fine line between responsibility and what, suddenly everything becomes a burden to you, and then you end up carrying the weight of the world on your shoulders. And so for me it was, yes, there were challenges. I never owned a practice. There were challenges with staff and team, and you have less control when you don't own a practice. The thing that hurt me the most was all the stress of dealing with patients. I went in because I liked people and, but I didn't like the dentist patient relationship the way I thought it needed to, that it was a me problem the way I thought it needed to be was very harmful for me.

Speaker 9:50

And uh, sometimes I hear that burnout is really high among dentists. Is that right?

Speaker 2 9:55

Yeah, it is. Do you feel like what, you know of dentistry and optometry that they're, they seem like similar careers.

Speaker 10:05

Yeah. I know for optometry it's 53% burnout.

Speaker 2 10:10

Wow.

Speaker 10:11

Every other person.

Speaker 2 10:13

I saw one where it was like 80% or something like that.

Speaker 10:16

Oh my God. My God. Yeah,

Speaker 2 10:17

yeah,

Speaker 10:17

yeah.

Speaker 2 10:18

I don't know how accurate that was, but it's high. And the people who are burnt out are the ones that don't have those boundaries, and so they just take on everybody else's problems and blame themselves for everything that goes wrong. And we're only human. You can't do that.

Speaker 10:34

Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2 10:34

I did that.

Speaker 10:35

Yeah. Yeah, it's true. It's not sustainable for sure. And doctors, dentists, optometrists, we're still people, right? That's a good point that we think need to remind ourselves that we need time to recoup. To rest, to be more intentional about what we need now for your journey, did you recognize it right away? Was it more of a subtle buildup that something was wrong? How did you know?

Speaker 2 11:02

I love that question because I think many of us are really out of touch with what we want and what we believe and what we feel. So it took me a long time. Part of it is we don't think we're allowed to choose. So many of us chose these careers because our parents wanted us to, and we thought it was gonna give us this life that was very stable and secure and comfortable with. You could have a lot of impact. People respect you. We are drivers, so we'll just keep going and going without listening to ourselves. And so for me, I would say that was the pattern. Oh, and by the way, we get so much praise for choosing these careers that you can't imagine changing anything. You just ignore it, I think. And that's what I did for a long time. I needed permission really to say. Oh, you could actually change. Who knew? Who would think.

Speaker 12:09

What I find. Fascinating, which I learned recently is that that model of chasing professional career is under the assumption of success equals happiness. Right? If you find success, you'll be happy. So then it feeds into this mindset of, okay, I gotta keep grinding year three, year five, next milestones, and then I'll get to happiness. Right? But I actually learned that it's, no, you gotta find your happiness. First, and then happy people are more likely to find success, which feeds more happiness. So it's like backwards. It's,

Speaker 2 12:46

I love that you said that.'cause literally yesterday I wrote an e, like an email to go out to my list and. A social media post about that exact thing. And then when you put success before happiness, you keep moving the goalpost and then you're always chasing something that you never get to. So you're right, the happiness. It is, people who are happy first are more likely to have success, aren't they?

Speaker 13:11

Yeah, yeah, that's so true. Now, a lot of doctors feel that stress, the pressure and burnout at some point, and there's also different degrees of burnout. So people don't really know, but how do you know that this is a profession that's not working for you? It's not fitting you personally, versus maybe it's an environment, maybe it's the context. How do you know?

Speaker 2 13:40

I think it's worth. Giving yourself a chance to try different environments. So in th in my three year mark, when I was saying to myself, I need to quit. I need to find a new career. I had only been in one dental practice. I actually invited one of our dental supply reps out to lunch and I said, Hey, I wanna look for a career switch. Do you think I could do what you do? And he convinced me not to give up dentistry.'cause that's what people do. They convince you not to give it up. He was right at that time in my career, I needed to try a different kind of job. So I believe that it's very important to give it a chance and try different environments. Because that's the question. Is it the job or is it the career? And so I think this is probably across all industries is there are people who love their work, but because of something about the job that's a hassle or negativity or their micromanage, whatever it is. These people who wanna show up and do a good job, oftentimes are in bad environments. So it's really important to figure that out. My thought was, once I've tried it all, then I can know, and I did try some different environments. A lot of people in dentistry say to buy a practice and that's how. Mm-hmm. But if you're not sure, to me buying a practice is like having a baby to try to fix your marriage that isn't working. And I've seen, and I've seen a lot of people get stuck, so you have to, I would say walk with caution for that solution, for me, it just kept that nagging feeling kept coming back, and that was how I knew that I just had to listen to myself that this career

Speaker 15:34

I love that point about the. Being a business owner, not being the answer.'cause optometry has that option too, right? If you become an owner, then you get to dictate how to deliver patient care in the space protocols who you work with. But being a business owner. Much more than just being a doctor, which you might enjoy. You have to be a visionary. You have to actually love the business and like how to put systems in place, hiring people, managing, firing.

Speaker 2 16:04

Yeah. And then everyone's saying, oh, this is what you should do. And it's a really cookie cutter solution. It doesn't work for everyone.

Speaker 16:13

In optometry we were told essentially it's be an associate and then maybe you can own your own practice. That was it. Nobody's told you to do anything else as possible. Is that the same in dentistry?

Speaker 2 16:28

Pretty much. There are a few other ways you can practice, but it still all boils down to it's usually clinical stuff, so you can do work in a prison or do military dentistry. They're just different environments. You can do public health and work in a clinic, a public health clinic, so there, but most of the things that we're taught are clinical like that you're wanting to branch out from that. We have to pioneer that path on our own.

Speaker 16:58

Interesting. Walking your own path, I guess.

Speaker 2 17:01

Yeah. Just exploring and finding it.

Speaker 17:04

Yeah. Now, so you eventually made that incredibly difficult decision, right? To leave clinical dentistry. Tell us about that period. What was that like?

Speaker 2 17:15

It was horrible. It was so painful. I'm glad I did it, but at the time, you feel like a failure. You wonder what's wrong with you. Why can everyone handle this? But I can't. Also, this was in 2011 when I left. I'm, yeah, 2011. And nobody was really talking about it. Now we have, you and I met on LinkedIn, we have Facebook groups, we have Instagram. People are talking about it, and so if you're experiencing that, it's a little less weird. But when I did it, it was weird and people thought I was crazy. So I equate a lot in dentistry to relationships. Like I mentioned, the baby buying practice is like having a baby. Well this is like a divorce. And even if you know that you're unhappy in this career marriage. Breaking up is still hard'cause there's a part of you that does love it. So there's a lot of doubt, a lot of self-doubt, a lot of back and forth.

Speaker 18:25

Yeah. It sounds like you knew deep down, like this was a right choice for you. I wonder how much of that hesitancy is from fear of judgment and other people maybe not understanding your choices. And related to that, I'm curious if like how did your family and friends react to your decision to leave dentistry?

Speaker 2 18:48

I think my friends were probably happy because it was like that time that you're dating someone and you can't break up. They were tired of hearing me complain about it. They knew it was best for me.

Speaker 19:00

I

Speaker 2 19:00

see. My husband actually was the one who was like, you need to do something about this. He, one day he said to me, I joke that it was like an ultimatum. I sort it out. I don't care what we do, if we need to sell our house, if we need to move, fine, but sort it out because you cannot come home crying from work every day and up at 2:00 AM every night. And so he really gave me permission before, way before I ever give myself permission. And family, they want the best for you. They, they mean well. They mean well, and what I've found is that when you own your decision with confidence, the people around you are more supportive of it. When you're insecure about it and you are hemming and hawing, they just wanna help you. So they're gonna say, no, you should stay in your career. It's such a great career. What are you doing? They mean well, but it's, it is hard for us because it can make us want to give up chasing what we know is what's really right for us.

Speaker 20:07

Yeah, yeah. So it does sound like your husband also gave you a bit of a nudge, hey, like you gotta listen to your inner voice and figure out what you really want. And my own story actually mirrors that too, because when I was working like. Six days a week and I was suddenly burning out, and I didn't know. This is the weirdest thing, is like I didn't know that I was burning out until my wife was like, uh, I think you need to shake things up because you don't seem very happy at the job. And I was like, no. Like work is supposed to be tough. That's why it's called work. It's a job, right? It's not easy. But really, she was the one that. I guess as you say, it gave me the permission to ask myself like, what do I really want? Is this really what I wanna do for the next 10 years?

Speaker 2 20:55

We're so lucky for that because I've talked to a lot of people whose um, partners don't think it's okay, and that's just fear. Again, they mean it's just fear, but it keeps us stuck. So how great for you, I love that she was able to reflect that back on you.

Speaker 21:15

Yeah. There's something that I read recently that said you're living your purpose if you're working for just the joy of the work itself. But on the other hand, if you're working for some reward in the future, oh, once I get to this milestone, then this will all be worth it. Or, but some, for some people it's a, a way to fund your life. It's like income, money, right? It's a necessity. So I thought that was interesting. It made me think about what it means to live your purpose and maybe it does mean just being present. And you can only do that if you truly love the work you do.

Speaker 2 21:56

Yeah. I was a person who wanted to love what I was gonna do. And I talked to so many people who they say comments like, like what you thought, oh, it's just work. And that's why we call it work. And nobody likes work. And it's impossible to find work that you love, that you feel really. Engaged with and fulfilled by, and that that's not real. But there was always a part of me that was like, I dream of that. I want that. And so it is nice to know that is possible. It's probably not everybody's gonna chase that, but if we believe that it's possible, then we're much more likely to be able to find that. Yeah.

Speaker 22:43

Yeah. And I think it's also. People like you who are like trailblazers, you're like a pioneers in this path. And like you said before, like the internet was more popular. You didn't have anyone that would just know that this was even possible. But I'm sure there are other dentists who are now drawing from your story as a proof that this is possible.

Speaker 2 23:08

Absolutely. Yeah. It's like we just need someone to say that it is. Whoever is going through it, you need to give yourself permission.

Speaker 23:16

Yeah.

Speaker 2 23:16

Because that what is the only thing in our way.

Speaker 23:18

It's so true. Now, today, the work that you do is really creative, right? So different from clinical dentistry now. Right? So you're right. You speak coach and you have platform for honest conversations about burnout, which I think is really important. So what are your thoughts on doctors, clinicians having creative passion projects?

Speaker 2 23:40

I love that question because not everybody think, and I think it's the key. I remember when I was at my lowest, and I actually worked with a career coach who wasn't a dentistry career coach, so she didn't really know our profession. And I remember saying to her, I just feel so bored and I feel boring. And how sad is that to feel boring? And so one of the things I discovered with her was how creativity is so important. It's the way we connect with ourselves. And so I've seen the people who have some level of creativity in their lives feel a lot happier, so you don't have to totally leave your career. If that's not what you want, but if you can have this outlet, then what you start to see is that your work isn't everything and you are not 100% defined by your work you than that. And so this is one reason I think creativity is so important and doesn't have to be painting or a musical instrument. It could be as simple as cooking and following recipes where you maybe you take, I used to take photos of my. I loved cooking because I would get to eat what I made. It was a fun outcome and I loved taking photos of it. I didn't do anything with it for the most part, but you know what? I did have a photo printed in National Geographic Traveler Magazine, and they paid me a couple hundred bucks for it. And how fun is that, right? Like they found it on my blog. They asked me if they could use it in one of their issues.

Speaker 25:25

That's amazing. That's amazing. That

Speaker 2 25:27

never would've happened if I wasn't having fun just taking photos of food. It's really writing. That was where I found my creative connection, but the have of that, the more whole we become.

Speaker 25:40

Yeah. Yeah. I love that too, because my. Story also began with blogging as well, and I didn't really want it to be about like, how can I grow this Monet monetize this and whatnot. I just wanted to write, and the funny thing is, unexpected doors open for you. Anyways, so then I got some speaking invitation and I was like, I'm not a speaker, but they want me to do a keynote for like a hundred people. And I did that and then a few more came in. And so now I talk about burnout and things like that, but none of that would've happened if it wasn't for my block. And I find that so interesting is that when you don't even look for these external markers of success and you just follow your passion, the all those things come anyway.

Speaker 2 26:31

Yeah. It's like what you were saying about your work is if you engage in something you enjoy. If you're looking at the creative endeavor as the thing that's going to rescue you from your current job and open up doors to create this new career, you're putting so much pressure on it that you're probably not gonna. Keep going with it, but if you just do it for the sake of loving it like you did with your blog like I did with my, my blog, and then you have the perspective that this is gonna open doors. I don't know doors, I don't know I'm gonna open, but I'm gonna kick through the next door that I open. It totally works, doesn't it?

Speaker 27:18

I, oh my God, you're saying I resonate a thousand percent. And I really hope that more people can experience what we went through because the possibilities are like endless, all these doors that you never expected or imagined,

Speaker 2 27:33

yeah. And now you're podcasting. That's a creative outlet.

Speaker 27:37

We knew nothing about podcasting and we're like, part of that is growth. And that's the fun of it too. You get better at all these other skills I have a question for you actually, because now that I'm like a creative person too, sometimes I feel like there's an endless things that I could be doing. There could always be one more post, one more article, one more outreach, like how do you manage all that too yourself? I'm curious

Speaker 2 28:07

that that is actually a real struggle for me because I love writing and I think I pull out really great concepts in my writing and it's so much fun. But it takes me so long. I haven't written a blog post in forever, and I keep wanting to get back to it, but it takes me so long. I was able to do so much of it when I wasn't, when this work was. Not really taking up a lot of my time. And now it takes up so much more of my time that I don't make the time to write. I do write a little bit, I'll write my social media posts that are much shorter, but it is a different reflective process. And it's a little, it's sad for me because I miss that and I love that and it's a, it's actually a neat way for me to connect with other people and like we were saying earlier, to connect with myself. So that is a challenge for me. If you any way to help me solve that, Fred, I'm all ears.

Speaker 29:07

I think it's what you, we talked about earlier, just even if it's five minutes journaling, just doing it consistently every day.'cause even a few minutes can really help for the whole day. Yeah.

Speaker 2 29:18

Yeah. I like that.

Speaker 29:20

And also another idea is sabbatical. So I really, so every December is my sabbatical, so I really try not to work in this month. And I don't go anywhere for vacation. It's really a time for me to take a step back and it's inspired by the, a lot of people who take sabbaticals, like Bill Gates takes a think week where he's isolated in a cabin in the woods for a week and just paper and pen. That's it.

Speaker 2 29:50

Wow. That is amazing And really hard to do now in our world that we're so plugged in, but so good for us.

Speaker 30:01

Yeah, and I think you don't need a whole month, even if that's very difficult. Even if it's like just a weekend, right? Or four days. I just talked to a colleague who went to a monastery in New York and he was just there for a month and he just,'cause he was feeling a bit burnt out from practice, flew over there. He's from Canada, but he flew over there for a month and he said it was the best thing he's done in years. Yeah,

Speaker 2 30:28

that's awesome.

Speaker 30:30

I think we all need that kind of a reset too. And as a professional, when you do good work, you invite more work and then suddenly your calendar's all filled and

Speaker 2 30:41

yeah, there's

Speaker 30:42

just no space for anything.

Speaker 2 30:43

Yeah, and, and to your point is it's finding the right. Breaks that are more nurturing and not as distracting. And so it is hard. But that idea of going to a cabin for by yourself for a week, that's the most restful, rejuvenating type of break to take.

Speaker 31:10

Let's go back to that passion point because one of the big fears that clinicians have is, what if my passion doesn't pay the bills? And or what if people don't understand it? So how do you navigate the tension between the two?

Speaker 2 31:27

Yeah. I'll add a third. What about, I don't have a passion. I don't really know what I heard, like anything.

Speaker 31:32

Yeah.

Speaker 2 31:32

So with that one, I always say don't have a passion. I actually got this from Elizabeth Gilbert. She is an author. It is a great concept. She reminded us that passion is obsession, right? If you're passionate about something, you're gonna be obsessed. If you don't have a passion, then you don't wanna be obsessed over something that you don't care about. So just, just explore and have fun. Again, it's like dating your career. Just have fun. I think that's probably, I. The biggest thing I see because if, like for me, I'm very passionate about this. So are you, we've talked about this before about how important this work is that we do to us, and that's where you have to be careful about burning yourself out because you can like this so much that you obsess over it and you never pull yourself away. So. Fred, can you repeat that question because I, did I get that? Did I answer that the right,

Speaker 32:39

What I'm curious is how do you help clients who are scared of the financial instability? What if my passion doesn't pay the bills?

Speaker 2 32:47

Yeah. Thanks for bringing me back to that. So that's why I love the side gig. Because I don't know about optometry, but dentistry is amazing in that you can still work three days a week and make a really good income, and you can't do that in most careers. I know lots of dentists that are doing two days a week and they're perfectly happy with that. So 2, 3, 4 days a week, that gives you some time to explore outside and in fact, I had a great. Example of this is one of my clients, Jenna, who she actually lives in the uk. She lives in Wales, and she has a part-time painting business that she started based off of those painting and sipping places where you go in and they teach you how to paint on a canvas and then you drink wine.

Speaker 33:38

Oh yes, pain night.

Speaker 2 33:40

Yeah. Paint night. So she does that, but instead of having a space, she basically run, runs team building workshops for dental offices and other teams. Mm-hmm. And she teaches painting and she even gives continuing education credits for it.

Speaker 33:57

Oh, that's awesome.

Speaker 2 33:58

And we created that out of nothing. It was a total creative process. She's so talented at what she does. She was able to do it. We literally talk about that slight edge. We had her doing the smallest tasks every week so that she could have the time to move herself forward, but wasn't overwhelmed.'cause you'll burn yourself out if you're doing too much.

Speaker 34:23

Yeah.

Speaker 2 34:24

So she was doing four days a week in clinic and then she would. Do the smallest tasks each week, and eventually she started doing these workshops and she cut down her days from four days a week to three, and then eventually she went down to two days a week, and now she's got a part-time business that allows her to do two days a week. Doing that and she's making income doing that. So she is actually has a profitable model. So part of it is getting creative about how you're going to make money. And we really just stumbled upon it by saying, let's again, let's play with this. Let's see what we can come up with in a way that's not gonna cost you a lot of time and not gonna cost you a lot of money. Yeah. Uh, yeah. Not everything's gonna make money, but someone's going to. So why can't it be you?

Speaker 35:19

If somebody who's listening feels like they're really stuck. What advice would you have for them?

Speaker 2 35:28

Don't do it alone. There are people out there who can support you there is no roadmap out. So if you don't get accountability, if you don't have someone who can run through it with ideas for ideas with you, it is a very easy to give up. People can do it, it's just gonna take you a lot longer. So I would say work with a coach and get help and, the other thing too that's really important is. I, I'd be curious to know your ideas on this, Fred, but this is an inside job starting figuring out what else you wanna do isn't about looking outside of yourself and getting ideas of what other people can do, because. Because what I find is when people go onto social media and say, oh, what are other jobs that dentists can do? You might get a list of a hundred things and nothing sounds good to you because you haven't worked through giving yourself permission. And what are people gonna think of you and your fear of What if I regret this decision? So much of this work is really. Going inside and figuring out who you are and what you want and what mindset, how can you encourage yourself and shift so that you will allow yourself to get into momentum by getting into action. And then actions where we get our answers. So I would say. Just stop getting stuck in the Google spiral that, have you done that? Where you'd go online and be what other jobs? I could do

Speaker 37:01

thing? Yeah. Yeah. No, inaction keeps you stuck. I agree with that. And action is what brings you clarity. And I did write a recent blog article about. What you just said, and it's about like how are you supposed to figure out your passion? Sometimes people don't really know, they're just on an autopilot in some sense, and they wanna know like, how do I figure this out? And the way I'll explain it is that finding your purpose is like walking a foggy trail, so just imagine that you have this trail, but it's foggy weather. You can't really see where this is going. You don't really know where the turns are either. But doing nothing is like standing still, right? You're never gonna make headway. But when you take a step in the direction of your passion, then the fog lifts a little bit. You see a little more, and then you know where the turns are coming. And then I think really that's how you find yourself. And the passion can be really elusive too. And even for me, even two years ago, I never would've imagined, like I'll be talking to other optometrists about burnout. That's an inconceivable, but now I just love it. And so I think it's really about taking little steps. Don't worry about a perfect plan. You don't need to know exactly where This's gonna go and make money. These are tough questions you'll never find an answer to by staying still. That's just my, this is my

Speaker 2 38:33

take on it. Love that. I love that. And that's the thing is like so much of us, that's about the pathway into our different careers is things planned out. And so we think going, coming out of it that everything has to be planned before we can even take that first step and then we stay paralyzed.'cause then we're too scared to take that first step'cause it's, we're making it too big. So I, yeah, and I, our content overlaps'cause it's just truth.

Speaker 39:02

So I would say like this, before I took on all these creative pursuits, I used to be very scared of the unknown. Oh. Like I'm used to doing five, six days of stable work of optometry. That's all I've known. So anything different is scary. But then now that I've stepped into this infinite possibility of like podcasts and speaking and travel optometry, now I'm just excited at the future of the unknown. What else would this open?

Speaker 2 39:33

Yeah. It's change is so hard, and I love this quote. I don't know, said it first, but the only constant in life is change.

39:43

Yeah.

Speaker 2 39:43

And we're just trying to find that. Isn't that so true? They're trying to fight that. That's, but it does, it opens you up and what you realize is like your fears of the unknown are the only thing in your way and wouldn't you agree that it's, when you do it, it's never as hard as you think it's gonna be.

Speaker 40:00

Yeah, for sure. And it's so much fun. Like it's just about finding the thing that lights you up and then it really doesn't feel like work.

Speaker 2 40:09

Yeah.

Speaker 40:11

Yeah,

Speaker 2 40:11

exactly. One of my favorite. Brene Brown quotes is that isolation breeds shame and empathy kills shame. So as we are having these conversations, it's making us both feel more conviction for our beliefs, and we're helping somebody else who's going, oh, wait a minute. Wow, I needed to hear that. So having these conversations about these universal truths just help other people. See them too, and then it's synergistic.

Speaker 40:45

Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. Now, here's a reflective question for you. If your younger self could see you today, what would she find most surprising?

Speaker 2 40:56

Oh, probably that I do speak and that I get on podcasts, and I'm visible in that way because I used to be very shy when I was born. I was born shy and born scared. I have stories that my mother told me from my very early years. I would not leave her side. I would not let go of her leg. And so my whole young adult life, I was very shy and so I would, you would never expect that I do what I do now and I'm pretty so and sociable. You'd never know it.

Speaker 41:37

That's so interesting. I guess it goes back to what you said, like change is the only constant. And a lot of it is reinventing your identity and your growth in new areas. So that's kind of part of the flavor of life, I guess. That's what it's all about.

Speaker 2 41:53

Yeah, and, and you know what, to go back to our theme, it's like it just kept opening doors. Doors just kept opening. Just like for you getting invited to do a keynote. It's like you get invited to do something or you propose something and then you just practice it and then you get more comfortable with it and it just finds, you

Speaker 42:13

see? Yeah. See, I find that really fascinating too, how these doors keep opening and my personal theory is that. There are a lot of, say optometrists, for example, and there might be a lot of vloggers, but there's not that many optometrists and bloggers or dentists and a career coach. So just by that virtue of being in your own niche, there's just more chance of opportunities. I, that's just my personal theory on it.

Speaker 2 42:42

I agree. When helping people create, like when we helped Jenna create her painting business, it was like mm-hmm. Start your business and target your community because they, they trust you. And when you create something that you cater to the specific optometry community or dentistry community, you're almost creating a whole new thing that doesn't exist.

Speaker 43:07

Right? Yeah. Yeah. I guess it's always about finding your niche, your passion, and I think expanding your identity in that way, like more than just being optometry or a dentist, I think it will inevitably lead to opening new doors. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 43:25

Always.

Speaker 43:27

Awesome. Okay, I really love this conversation, and just to wrap up the podcast episode, one final question. So at this stage in your career. With everything that you've lived and everything you teach, what does work happiness mean to you now?

Speaker 2 43:44

Like you said, passion. When I can live my purpose of life, which for me is to connect with people, see our work is the vehicle. The actual work you do is the vehicle, the optometry that you do, the dentistry that you do is the vehicle that helps you express your purpose. And so when you get to live in alignment with your purpose, that's when you that, that's when you get to feel impacted yourself, and then it doesn't feel as hard to help people. It's amazing how that works.

Speaker 44:15

I, I love that. I love that answer. And just the passion that you exude, like I can feel it, it really resonates with me as well. So thank you for that. And tell us, yeah, any exciting products you have coming up and where can people find you?

Speaker 2 44:28

Yeah, so I'm really excited in for of 2026, September 1st through the sixth, I'm hosting the. Inside Gig Summit. So my Facebook group is called Dentist Side Gigs and we, I mentioned earlier, I love the vehicle of the side gig, even if you never leave your career, but have a side gig to add creativity to your life. But. The real side gig is that internal work, and that's what we're gonna do in Portugal at my retreat in September. So I'm very excited about that. I just mentioned my Facebook group. You can find me on Instagram at Dr. Lolas, or just Google 10 reasons your dentist hates you, and I guarantee your optometry colleagues will relate to that list and that gets to my website and my blog and all that good stuff. So I'm also on LinkedIn too.

Speaker 45:25

I love that. I love that. Okay. Thank you for joining today and yeah, hope you can do this again.

Speaker 2 45:30

I love it. Thanks for having me, Fred.