Dr. Sophia Leung: Pit Stops, Purpose, and Building an Uncharted Career

What happens when you follow curiosity instead of waiting for the perfect plan?

Dr. Sophia Leung is a Diplomate of the American Board of Optometry, Fellow of the American Academy of Optometry, President of the Alberta Association of Optometrists, and holds a joint Executive MBA from Cornell and Queen's — all while directing a specialty clinic and mentoring the next generation of Canadian optometrists.

Sophia has navigated her career without a perfect roadmap, guided instead by curiosity, strong mentorship, and a willingness to learn.

In this episode, we explore:

• Why she went back for residency five years after graduating — and what changed
• How board leadership completely shaped her clinical career
• The "pit stop" philosophy she uses to prevent burnout
• What work happiness means when meaning and purpose lead the way

If you've ever felt unsure whether you're on the right path — this one's for you.

Transcript

Fred H. Cho 0:00

welcome back to another episode of 20 Happy podcast. Today's guest is one of Canada's most decorated optometrists who decided that clinical excellence isn't enough and went back to school for an executive MBA while leading a provincial optometry association directing a specialty clinic and lecturing at universities. Dr. Sophia Long is a diplomat of the American Board of Optometry, a fellow of the American Academy of Optometry, and a diplomat of the American Academy of Optometry in anterior segment, the first Canadian to earn these titles, key opinion leader, published author, and respected medical writer. She has also served on the board of the Alberta Association of Optometrists for nearly a decade, currently as a president, welcome Sophia.

Sophia Leung 0:45

Thanks guys Thanks for having me I'm excited to to chat with you

Fred H. Cho 0:48

Yeah. And here on the show we like to start off with a Monday Fuel. So if you don't know what it is, you'll catch on pretty quick. Okay. Riyad, please kick us off.

Riyad 0:57

Yeah, so actually my Monday field, we were just talking about it. I'm actually in Edmonton this week and for the next week as well. And it's nice I get a little break from work and kind of I work with the oil kings down here it's like. All hockey for me. So it's fun. I get to go to the games, I get to go to the rink and work with the guys and just take a little break from the clinical part of optometry and it lets me reset and just build that gets me that fuel again for when I go back. No, I'm enjoying, it's been a good trip and we get to spend a lot of family time too, as well.

Fred H. Cho 1:23

Actually, I've never asked you this, but what's your favorite part of doing a sports vision for hockey teams?

Riyad 1:30

Probably getting to watch the guys especially 'cause I get to watch the junior guys. So like when I get to do, so for instance, I went in on Tuesday to the rink and I got to work directly with the goalies and we worked on specific things. Wednesday at 11:00 AM they had a game. So I got to go to the game and the goalie ended up. Only letting in one goal and they won six one. So it's cool to like work on something and then see their success as well. And it's his draft year too something like lots of people watching him too. Yeah, I think that's my favorite part is get to work with them and then get to watch them play as well and be in that kind of team-based environment.

Fred H. Cho 2:03

Amazing. Yeah, and I do have a really good one this week.

Riyad 2:07

Okay.

Fred H. Cho 2:07

on my most recent work trip to Newfoundland, so I do travel optometry, and I was there for a week, and then at the end of it. I got screeched in which if you don't know, it is a Newfoundland tradition where someone born outside of I Newfoundland can become an honorary Newfoundlander. One of my staff's brother really loves doing this for other peoples. So they had this whole party for me. And they had me recite some lines some new fi sayings. And then I had this drink called Screech, which is like the Newfoundland rum. And as we were about to do it we're like, anyone else wanna join in? There was like six of us and everyone else was like. No, we're not doing that. And yeah it wasn't that bad. Like I had it, I was like, it's just like rum, it's

Riyad 2:56

Yeah. Yeah.

Fred H. Cho 2:57

they're like, you don't have to be polite. It's okay. We know it's awful. It's alright.

Riyad 3:00

That's funny.

Fred H. Cho 3:01

of the initiation process. And then I took Kiss a Co as well.

Riyad 3:05

I've seen that.

Fred H. Cho 3:06

And so yeah, now I'm a honor Newfoundlander and I got the A flag. They gifted me a Newfoundlander flag, if you can see that. And yeah, amazing experience. Had a lot of fun.

Sophia Leung 3:16

That's awesome I actually remember it was actually I think in congress like the last time it was out there and it was like a group mass screeching in There was like I think there was

Fred H. Cho 3:25

Wow.

Sophia Leung 3:25

people

Fred H. Cho 3:26

Did you get screeched into then? Yeah. Wow.

Sophia Leung 3:29

did I got screeched in yeah with with like yeah just a a bunch of people that was all at a you know

Fred H. Cho 3:34

Yeah

Sophia Leung 3:35

I had no idea what it was I That that was even a thing and so I thought it was like is it like a line

Fred H. Cho 3:39

Yeah.

Sophia Leung 3:40

I don't know But yeah And then this fish comes outta nowhere I'm like what And so yeah I had a very similar reaction to you Fred but we all did it

Riyad 3:47

I'm feeling left out now. Everyone's been maybe I'll just order some screech and drink it just during this next podcast. Yeah

Fred H. Cho 3:55

So Sophia what about for you?

Sophia Leung 3:58

Yeah. I think I'm catching on So I guess the the massive snow dump that we're getting in Calgary you know I get to I think for the first time this season I'm gonna hopefully ski tomorrow and so I'm kinda excited because about four years ago I decided I was gonna try and learn how to skate Board and it was short-lived because I broke my ankle very quickly and so I've been I've been hoping to learn how to ski and so I I picked it up last year and so I bought all the gear and everything and so this year this season will be the first time for tomorrow and there's lots of snow so I'm I'm pretty excited

Fred H. Cho 4:28

I I actually wiped out the first time I went snowboarding. This was like years ago, and it was on a bunny hill and I completely wiped out and like in injured myself. And I remember all these, like five year olds zipping past me. Yeah, don't do what I did, which was like watching YouTube on the way there. I'm like, how hard can it be, snowboard, whatever.

Sophia Leung 4:49

Well YouTube is a surprisingly helpful tutor or coach but I agree with you cause I've I've actually broken my arm snowboarding and also on a bunny hill so yeah you're accident prone I guess we're learning that I am

Fred H. Cho 5:01

Awesome. Thanks for sharing that. And I think to me, what makes your story really compelling? It's not just the credentials and the achievements, which honestly it sounds like a highlight reel when I read it like that. But it's really the questions underneath them, like why you decided to pursue an executive MBA mid-career. what is it that drives you to keep learning? Is it curiosity? I know we talked about that before, so I'm really looking forward to getting into all that. But let's start with this. You graduated from Waterloo in 2014, and then five years later decided to pursue residency in an ocular disease and refractive surgery. So what motivated you to do that?

Sophia Leung 5:42

Yeah the the background story is that when I graduated at the time I was under the impression that kind of residency option would have to be through a a university like it would have to be located in-house University so I actually the lesser known story is actually I applied once already Prior to that I actually applied to match in in Chicago and the interviews went well but it was during that time where the the visa situation was becoming you know more and more challenging to to get for especially as a Canadian graduate And so I didn't match and due to a number of different reasons and and I was pretty heartbroken about it And so I thought you know what I still like disease I think that's kind of the area that I'm gonna lean towards So I'm gonna throw myself into kind of a a more rural practice and just learn everything I can and and hope to to build that thinking that I probably wouldn't ever go towards a residency ever again That this is gonna be the start of my career and you know due to I think maybe asking a series of questions at one of the new grad events with the Alberta Association optometrists I kind of you know got roped into joining the board kind of shortly after I graduated it started to open up a different perspective because we went to our very first strategic planning session and already at that time this was like 2015 I was hearing about the leaders of the day talking about this movement towards medical optometry in the States And it was like fascinating to me because I hadn't really heard of that in school Right I was just really kind of picking up the the basics of it and never even imagined that there was like beyond what we were learning that there was more and it kind of planted a bit of seed and then when it became very quickly realized that Alberta was going to start pushing for expanded scope We realized we were relying a lot on American talent and and there's a lot of leaders out there trailblazers who have done a ton of leading and teaching and everything And of course you know Oklahoma where you know I did

Riyad 7:29

Yes.

Sophia Leung 7:30

and I think we had You did as well too yeah so you know Oklahoma has been such a big supporter of optometry globally and I realized that you know it's great that we have these partners but we really actually need People in Canada to to be able to speak to government to speak to stakeholders and that was kind of where I realized well if if maybe we can try to encourage people to go and get training to really come back as experts and subject matter experts I was in a a position that why couldn't I do it at the time And and I certainly was still interested right And so I said you know what if I'm gonna go and tell other people to do it tell other students to do it maybe I lead by example here Maybe I go and just test the water see what's out there and then and then see if I can maybe you know Figure out a template for it try to create an avenue for it if there wasn't there And That's, kind of really what prompted me to go towards that that route and lots of mentorship you know along the way that reminded me Hey not every residency is gonna be the same You wanna find people who understand why you're going after it that they can tailor the the program to you and that you kind of want to spend some time with them for the whole year Right cause if nothing's worse than trying to put yourself somewhere where you You don't really get along with the people So I found almost a perfect match in the residency state residency site that I landed in And they knew they knew that you know one of the big goals was can we make Alberta at the time You know I know that's on the scope topic There's lots of you know momentum there in Canada but could we make Alberta the Oklahoma of Canada and they really loved that idea And so that's that's how I landed there you know you know five years later in kind of this residency program that I wanted to learn more to look at you know how Optometry and ophthalmology can collaborate but also to take a look at a place where optometry had been practicing at the highest school for the longest time with the goal of bringing it back and sharing it with with you know whoever would be interested and also wherever it would be helpful

Riyad 9:16

Amazing. That's an awesome answer. So first, actually, I'm gonna have to reminisce with about Oklahoma for you a little bit there. Is the who is your supervisor down there?

Sophia Leung 9:24

Yeah so I had co supervisors it was doctors

Riyad 9:27

Okay? Yes.

Sophia Leung 9:28

Joel Sear it

Riyad 9:29

Yes.

Sophia Leung 9:29

at a a private practice

Riyad 9:31

Yes. Yes. Yeah, I know that. Okay. Amazing. Yeah, and I think that the other thing you mentioned about Oklahoma too, and I echo is it's just such a great, the optometrists really work together and I think I told this story last time, I, and you probably did this as well, where we went to Congress and like I never did that in Waterloo or Ontario ever. And like during my residency, everyone hopped on a bus. We went to Congress, we were talking to all congress people about the scope and everything like that, and it was just such a like community feel down there and you can really see why, like they've really pushed that as well. So that's been amazing.

Sophia Leung 10:02

yeah

Fred H. Cho 10:02

Yeah, and so I'm hearing too is that you had to create this path for yourself. You're like if I'm encouraging students to do this, why, how? Why don't I just figure this out and do it too? being a first also means you have to navigate without a roadmap. So I'm wondering how you did that and what was the challenge? How did you overcome that?

Sophia Leung 10:24

Mm-hmm yeah You know there there were lots of challenges I ran into and It is funny because I never planned on you know going a road that's Been unmarked you know you know for example what happened is when I when I got there they told me that all of a sudden that the again this visa thing that they were gonna stop taking Canadian residence and this is you know in

Riyad 10:44

Nothing required just to know when.

Sophia Leung 10:46

also there was some issue with the way that our social security Numbers got assigned and and it was kind of a just there was a bit of a logistics I would say maybe kind of like a a mis ordering of the events that needed to happen And I was told by Jason that you know the school had issued a notice that the they were gonna close the Canadian door And that obviously was concerning to me because I was like wait a second we actually want I I don't wanna be the last Canadian graduate to go and do a a residency through NSU or Ensu Co and so that You know to to make kind of a really long story summarized it ended up just being sort of the guess in my mind there was a potential barrier And the question I had was does it really have to be this way You know is this the only way or is there another path because I I believed enough in what needed to to be available for at the time What kind of that vision or mission or goal would be And you know being being the first doesn't mean that I did it alone either I I had such support from Jason and Joel and and Nate Lighthouse at the school Carolyn Major These are all people that also saw it And and it was like okay let's try to figure out a solution together And so you know like Even though a lot of it was you know the residency having been kind of the first Canadian in Omag for that residency And then when COVID hit and shut everything down north of the border we had to choose do I try to you know go back and then just find work Or do we create the very first you know fellowship of an advanced glaucoma and cornea fellowship and so it it kind of formed out of almost like a need right And if you believe that there's a direction forward and you're walking towards it and you've got good people around you Then you know barriers and you know holdups or or you know problems They're not all gonna be insurmountable Often many of them actually are are you know somehow fixable I guess that's kind of where out of a need maybe out of maybe ambition maybe sometimes naivety you just you just kind of try and keep breaking those walls down and then you look back and you're like oh I've I've done this a few times but certainly not alone you know certainly with lots of people together doing it

Riyad 12:52

When I hear people thinking, should I do a residency or not? Some people think that a residency is okay, so they're gonna teach me everything, or I just go there and show up. Whereas what you said is exactly it is, it's what you make of it and you have all these resources available. And if you are ambitious enough, if you have a goal, if you know what you wanna do. Then you can make that year feel like amazing and learn a ton, which I'm sure you think back in that year you probably learned more, if not more as than you may have ever did in school type of thing as well. Right I

Sophia Leung 13:25

Totally And you know one of the one of the neat things that I often get asked is you know do you do you wish you would've done it right outta school And and I guess my perspective was that I I got to in five years out you're kind of still a new grad but not really Right. And for me it was kind of like I knew very well what I didn't know I knew very well where my weaknesses are but I also knew that there were certain things that I I was able to do well And so I found that it was actually easier for me to to highlight Like Hey these are the areas that I. really want to tackle and I was able to learn for me at a a bit of a higher level because some of the basic stuff you know when you first come outta school there's like just basic doctoring things that you're just trying to figure out or how do you talk to a patient like those things And thankfully I had gotten that out of the way for myself and could learn there so Totally It is totally what you make of it And it's also being able to find Really good mentors that can also meet you there because without that then you know your your path forward your journey forward The trailbla that you do is is not gonna be at the same pace for sure

Fred H. Cho 14:27

Yeah. Perfect. And I know from our previous conversations that staying curious is really important to you, and it's a big driver of your career progression. and this actually, you had a recent webinar on the Career Advantage of Staying Curious, which I didn't know I was gonna be a panelist for. I wanted to just learn. About what you have to say, and then they're like, oh, hey friend. And I'm like, oh yes, please join as a panelist thing. And I was like, I didn't expect it.

Riyad 14:57

Yeah, that's perfect.

Sophia Leung 14:57

you being there I was like I've got another another expert here

Fred H. Cho 15:01

Yeah. And we found that we do have a lot of topics that we're interested to, like burnout and things like that. Curiosity, career progression. But in your own words, why is curiosity so important for your career?

Sophia Leung 15:13

I think I think for me curiosity is kind of like the silent but very powerful almost undercurrent it it keeps you moving forward and it also keeps you humble I think because at some point if you've stopped being curious about something because you think you know everything about it I guess in my opinion you've kind of lost your way Because how is it possible for you to know everything about something even if you're like a researcher in that area you're actually seeking to learn more Right And so I would hardly call myself in any position to to kind of be the leading expert and and fulsome knowledge expert of everything right There's always more to learn And so I think for me even tracking back from school to residency to MBA to really any position I've been in it was born out of you know I wonder if I wonder if maybe this could be possible and and or you know I wonder if I can learn more here and I want to know more and I think that, that's actually what's you know the sort of the underlying consistent force that's kind of propelled me forward and it also allows me to have some grace for myself when I don't know something right I think sometimes we are really hard on ourselves like if if we make a mistake or if we take a wrong turn or you know maybe we think we've made the wrong choice Sometimes I don't know about you guys but for me I can get pretty hard on myself thinking oh man like I had to make that one choice and it had to be correct But staying curious allows you to have grace you know to be like okay Maybe that wasn't the best or you know I'm now I have more to learn And it just allows you know a little bit of self-love there because it can be you know we often

Fred H. Cho 16:50

Yeah.

Sophia Leung 16:50

own harshest critic but nothing is more defeating to kind of progression if you are berating yourself for choosing wrong or to make a mistake Like nothing stops progression fast than that But if

Fred H. Cho 17:00

Yeah.

Sophia Leung 17:01

about where things could go or how you can learn from something then you just continue to get shuffled forward I think it's healthy to be able to be curious and you know I I quote Ted lasso often right You know be curious and not judgmental I think it helps to keep an open mind you know opens your perspective so that you know things you don't know or don't understand Then the biases and prejudices we all have don't get in the way as as easily as as it

Fred H. Cho 17:26

I love the connection you drew between the being curious, also staying grounded, being humble. So that's an interesting perspective I haven't thought about. And after watching the webinar it actually made me realize that for some people when you ask what is your passion follow your passion. People have a hard time answering that Sometimes I don't know, I don't know what I'm passionate about, but, so then another. Avenue is curiosity, right? What are you, what do you wanna learn more about? What is it that you wanna get lost solving certain problem and find out more about? So I think that's another great way for students, and there are just in general, in life, just to follow that curiosity rather than just the passion. I think that is it doesn't click for everybody.

Sophia Leung 18:11

And it can sometimes make you feel guilty if you don't know what your passion is right Like if you can't answer that on the spot it's not like you're apathetic Right and sometimes your passion can change so yeah it's do you think you'll shift your question then

Fred H. Cho 18:24

Like you said, passion evolves over time. So I think when we think about like passion and then you start thinking about what, what is like my life's like purpose. What do I want to achieve with my career? These like big questions and you try to think of a perfect plan and that just never exists. But if you focus on curiosity. do believe you focus on the next little step. Like it doesn't have to be like, let me figure everything out for the next 20 years of my career. Let's, it is just the next step. What do I wanna take this? And that curiosity is really fun to me also, because it takes me to places I never would've imagined. I would be like I didn't know I would be doing podcasts, for example. But I just love doing things like this

Riyad 19:03

I think that at least from what I think as well is they can go hand in hand, right? If you're passionate about something, you tend to be a little more curious about it, right? And similarly, like you can be passionate about something, but if you're not curious about it, then the road might end. And similar the other way too. If you're curious about something but you're not really passionate about it, it may not be something that you wanna kinda continue to do. So yeah, when those two go hand in hand, I think that's when you find that, that sweet spot, I think.

Fred H. Cho 19:30

Yeah. Yeah.

Sophia Leung 19:32

Mm-hmm

Fred H. Cho 19:32

I wanna ask you actually about the Alberta Association of Optometrists work that you do on the board. And this was since 2015, so that's nearly a decade of provincial leadership alongside the clinical career. So what made you want to get into that kind of responsibility and has your reason for staying on changed over time?

Sophia Leung 19:54

Yeah You know at first I'll be perfectly honest I I felt like I was strongly convinced to join know I think at the time you know there was a a need for representation from a newer grad and and to be fair that was a I think a good self-awareness of the board of the day to recognize that hey you know a a lot of us Practice similarly we're within a couple years graduating all from the same school And so there was a recognition that there needed to be a little bit more diversity in voice And when I first joined I honestly didn't really know what I was joining and so you know for anybody who's listening that's kinda like I think I'm interested I'm not really sure what it's about that's okay You know certainly I was just like that and my first role with the Alberta Association of Optometrist was actually the CE chair It was a portfolio role at the time and I loved it I I you know enjoyed being able to curate essentially a conference that I would enjoy going to get to know speakers and and kind of their area of expertise And that was kind of what I saw as Okay if that that sort of portfolio wraps up then you know I think I'll I'll move on and step off the board and then our board started to evolve into a more policy governance style which sounds super boring but what it really is it allows actually instead of having every single board member Having their own portfolio and siloed it actually allowed the board to come together and all share much more higher level kind of the direction of where the organizations would go the profession things like you know what's what's coming in five 10 years and how can we position ourselves And it became a lot more fun to be honest because now all of a sudden you get A bunch of people who have been kind of watching and having their their hand on the pulse of the profession now getting to bring their perspectives and actually truly brainstorming together and so that format that shift actually was when I realized oh you know what I could actually stay on this for a little longer and then you know after a while you can you can only kind of sit back and as a and not not that any council member is lazy at all but you know and and not eventually move into the executive roles because you wanna also make space for some new blood Right that's kind of where yeah it to also a little bit of convincing is consensus A little bit of theme there a lot of the current executive at the time and also some past presidents kinda like you know what Sophia like it is time you know bring in your expertise and bring in also your perspective And then also like allow for some some newer members to come through and then open up a spot on council and so that's kind of what moved into sort of You know going into vice presidency and then moving into presidency now and I had some amazing mentors and really strong previous past presidents and and you know even like my direct past president Dr Andrea Sby I had great people to to you know look up to and work alongside and That always makes it a lot easier right And you have a board that's moving towards more and more better board culture higher respect for each other better functioning as an organization All these things are are very encouraging for someone stepping into a presidency role and so yeah you know when I look back I would I would say My career path was entirely actually formed by my exposure to information being on the

Fred H. Cho 22:55

Wow.

Sophia Leung 22:55

you know you you learn to Strategic planning you you kind of start to hear a little bit of an insight of where things are going and you you hear people across Canada talking in the states as well talking about the shift and and that actually you think about it like I actually made the decision to go back and try to rep apply for residency again Because of the strap planning The board And and so it's it sounds kind of crazy but all I know of practicing as an optometrist is being on the board Like I know nothing different because it just as soon as I graduated shortly after I was put on the board and so I think it I has it has I have everything to kind of you know I wouldn't say I owe it all to the board but I I have a lot of influence from that board into where my career path has gone and so it's it's pretty incredible actually And I'm very thankful for the people I've gone to know and the you know the professional development that you get is being on a board as well and and truly being able to see and and you kind of hope That you kinda leave the board or any organization just a little bit and leave it a little bit better than you have found it and yeah it's it's grown a lot since I've been part of it and I think that when I leave it it's gonna be in great hands as well So it's

Fred H. Cho 24:04

Chris Christie's our classmate too.

Sophia Leung 24:06

Yeah like my perspective Okay so she is gonna be coming in as president She's gonna be excellent and so especially if you've seen her You know as a

Fred H. Cho 24:15

Yeah,

Sophia Leung 24:15

and now kind

Fred H. Cho 24:16

yeah.

Sophia Leung 24:17

her as a colleague Yeah In good

Fred H. Cho 24:18

it sounds to me like having impact beyond the exam room is something you really enjoy. And

Sophia Leung 24:24

Mm-hmm

Fred H. Cho 24:24

Shyna, who you probably know as well, she was also our classmate and the OEO president. Yeah. So she was on our podcast fairly recently and she said she got elected fairly. Early in her career as well after school. And she said as a new blood, she went in like guns blazing. Let's do this, let's change everything. And she said it was humbling to know that real change takes a lot of time and that sometimes leadership is less about speaking loudly and more about listening.

Sophia Leung 24:56

Yeah Yeah You guys had like a

Fred H. Cho 24:58

Yeah.

Sophia Leung 24:59

like you two are representing podcasters and you've got presidents

Fred H. Cho 25:02

I, oh, we have Lisa's also our classmate, Tim, we have a lot. Yeah. Yeah.

Riyad 25:09

were like, we started this podcast and then we started getting classmates on and we're like we could probably just interview all of our classmates too, like da. And so the other thing I actually really liked about what you were saying and what you've the theme in some of the stuff that you've been talking about is the mentor and finding mentors. And it's a good reminder, I think that sometimes we think about mentorship is we only find mentors when we're in school or we're younger, but it's, but you can find mentors anytime. And I think that it ties into the curiosity thing too, as well, is if you have mentors. That's the amazing part where you can learn and you can find those. It is like no matter what stage of optometry or stage of career you're in as well.

Sophia Leung 25:45

Yeah totally And mentorship even I I find what I really appreciate is that you can

Riyad 25:50

Yeah.

Sophia Leung 25:50

mentors For different things Right you know and and it could be in business it can be in You know like board work and and sometimes you can go beyond optometry in your you know quote unquote professional career you know it's it's it's fascinating to actually find people that could give some version of mentorship in industries

Riyad 26:09

For sure. Yeah.

Sophia Leung 26:10

And it just kind of opens up perspective which is Yeah. I've I'm coming to

Riyad 26:14

Yeah

Fred H. Cho 26:15

actually ties into our next question, which. Is that mid-career you enrolled in a joint executive MBA at Cornell and Queens, and I'm sure there were people from all sorts of background there while doing everything else that you do. So why did you decide to pursue this path?

Sophia Leung 26:32

One of the biggest reasons was I knew all the professional development that I received on the board because I was not a business owner I've been an associate and still am technically at the surgical practice that I work at I knew that the a lot of the business acumen financial terminology I knew that that was my weakest And I had tried doing modules and things like that I just couldn't get motivated enough to to learn it Well I would do it you know halfheartedly and realize I'm I don't think I retain anything And so a bit of a traditionalist at heart I think I was like Hey I guess I'll find a program So I was like MBA sounds good and I had actually been thinking about it for a while I kind of felt like there was this sort of draw and pulling and and and then there were multiple other things too I wanted to stepping into res or not residency presidency I recognized that if I'm gonna represent a membership A lot of the issues that our membership faces is actually not really clinical There's tons of resources for people to learn clinical to get answers there but there's a lot of business questions and and business things you know talk about you know we have we work with the government to try to figure out remuneration because a lot of provinces are still publicly funded And so you know that is oftentimes a a business discussion right The finances and the the you know burden of disease All those things are more You know I would say they're more business than they are clinic And then when I was sitting as an advisor on these different advisory boards or you know consultancy I found that it was often a bit challenging to connect like what would be good for clinicians and patients and translate that to sometimes a metric that mattered to be able to instigate change at the executive level to c-suites in a lot of pharmaceutical companies or med tech companies and things like that I knew that I knew that there was a gap that there was something that I wasn't connecting and I I wanted to be able to do that better And so I wanted to learn I wanted to be you know I I knew that I didn't know enough and I wanted to find a way to learn it at least get it enough of a understanding that it could be functional and maybe helpful And so I looked through some different programs and found this executive MBA program through Cornell and Queens It had a lot of you know the fundamentals But also what I really appreciated I had both the Canadian and the American but also an international perspective The faculty represented you know just a a a massive network alumni and history and background and then I was also very interested in and excited to actually meet a lot of people that you know were fairly involved in their own industries but they would be far different from mine And I knew that I would be able to learn a lot there And it was hard work but it actually proved to be really helpful actually helped me to fill in a lot of gaps and you know change some of the my perspective change a little bit of how I you know discuss different you know issues with stakeholders now and connecting that business piece actually makes it has made a difference

Riyad 29:16

I can see you're motivated and know where you wanna continue that thirst for knowledge, which is really impressive as well. I'm learning. Lot by the way. So this is great. But I know, like I know all the roles you have, so I'm curious, like lecturing, publishing, consulting, leading provincially as well, which is a lot, and then directing the specialty center and mentoring. Is there something that like, is a common thread that ties all these together that drives you? Or what's the, is there a commenting that really makes you enjoy all this stuff?

Sophia Leung 29:43

That's a good question a common thread I I suppose part of it is is if I guess maybe this is an approach that I have for lecturing as well I think is like if there is of some value what I've learned and it can be shared then I think that's where that to me seems like a reasonable next step Right Like the residency and the fellowship was interesting to me but I also knew I wanted to bring it back and so that encouraged me to to continue my work with the board and then come back to Canada and try to to share that And then in the format of teaching and lecturing you know again like if there's stuff that I see in like a medical corneal practice that people can learn from or from scope and things like that then Yeah. if there's still you know a you know benefit to me sharing that I think that's you know something I wanna

Riyad 30:26

Yeah.

Sophia Leung 30:27

do it well Right I never wanna have podium time talking about something I don't know or haven't invested into So I think there's like a I think we have a a obligation maybe to to take podium time and and

Riyad 30:39

Yeah

Sophia Leung 30:39

do it well I think that should that's For. any speaker anybody who has any kind of you know airspace I think you know that we have a responsibility and sometimes that gets lost I think And then for mentorship honestly you know again like if if I have something to to share that someone can find helpful then I'm happy to do it

Riyad 30:56

For

Sophia Leung 30:57

benefited from people doing that for me Right And and so you know it's not it's beyond just like a you know wanting to give back I think it's because like if if there is something that you know as a broader community there's benefit there to share and we all benefit from it I think it's worthwhile It's what a waste for it to be kept just to one

Fred H. Cho 31:13

And optometry is such a

Sophia Leung 31:15

yeah

Fred H. Cho 31:16

and close-knit community in a lot of ways too. I find that the more I'm putting myself out there, the more others are just more willing to help. Like they're more than happy to collaborate to help, because they also receive that same help. So I think it's just giving back as well. And that's really strong in our community. And actually touching on topic of burnout too, because obviously with all these things that you had to do, it must have been times where it was a lot for you to manage all these things. you told me something about pit stops, so I know about it 'cause you told me, but tell our listeners about that and why you think it's so important.

Sophia Leung 31:53

sure Yeah this was yeah this was an idea of kind of birthed out of you know some close friends of mine one in particular that kind of saw like this is not sustainable You know your pace is not sustainable and so you know out formed from that was these little these ideas of pit stops where there are intentional Breaks and you know they could be anything really There's not really like a hard and fast rule about what pissed stops are but they're essentially you know you take a weekend or a day or whatever but they're they're consistent enough Maybe they're quarterly maybe they're monthly Kind of depends on what your schedule can allow be You put them there just like any appointment and then you block it off And the goal is to not do the things that You would burn out on essentially So things like skiing or things like you know like just having a spa

Fred H. Cho 32:42

Yeah.

Sophia Leung 32:42

or anything like that where It just kind of changes pace and it's it

Fred H. Cho 32:47

Yeah,

Sophia Leung 32:48

for me because you know like many people I think I get excited by things I'm interested in but I can always just I can sit and forget to eat You know

Fred H. Cho 32:57

yeah,

Sophia Leung 32:57

straight in You know It you know the whole day has passed and you're all

Fred H. Cho 33:00

yeah.

Sophia Leung 33:01

get up and so it's sometimes you don't realize that by the time that you and I'm sure you know you've talked about this on on your podcast but by the time that you recognize that maybe you're a bit tired

Fred H. Cho 33:12

Yeah. Yeah.

Sophia Leung 33:13

Right And by that point your mental load and your mental capacity to try force a break in there becomes so much harder The activation energy to do that is so much harder because all you see The

Fred H. Cho 33:24

Yeah.

Sophia Leung 33:24

and The responsibilities And so if that pit stop is in there and is scheduled then it's it's so much easier So I've loved having It and I actually are am continuing to have

Fred H. Cho 33:32

Yeah.

Sophia Leung 33:33

You know despite the MB being over but it's it's yeah it was a game changer for me It just helped to give a little bit of breathing room you know kind of regather the wind in your sails kind of thing just to be able to keep going cause you know how effective can you be if you're

Fred H. Cho 33:47

Yeah. But I'm curious 'cause I like that it's very regular, like whatever it is scheduled that works for you, like quarterly or whatnot. So I like that it's repeating, but.

Sophia Leung 33:56

Yeah

Fred H. Cho 33:57

do you, like, how's that different from saying, oh, I don't know, like just this day I'm gonna do some skiing. That's all is it intentionality behind it? Like how do you define what a pit stop is and what isn't?

Sophia Leung 34:09

That's a good question I Yeah I think there is intention behind a pit stop where know you I I am purposely choosing to let my mind not think about whatever is

Fred H. Cho 34:21

Yeah.

Sophia Leung 34:21

you know

Fred H. Cho 34:22

Yeah.

Sophia Leung 34:22

right and You know are a big introvert then take the pit stop all to yourself you know and if you you know feed and and kind of are able to get joy and and so your heart is filled by you know your your family and friends then you know schedule your pit stops with them And and but It is. yeah And I think the intention also is that If you are doing it with people that they also know that this is this is a pit stop There's intention there And so maybe there isn't a lot of shop talk you know it's meant to be you know a a sort of a a almost like a protected mind and and mental and heart

Fred H. Cho 34:55

Yeah.

Sophia Leung 34:55

that but yeah I'm gonna have to chew on that Fred cause I haven't I don't think I actually thought about It that deeply but I think

Fred H. Cho 35:00

Yeah,

Riyad 35:00

It is

Fred H. Cho 35:01

it's just, I was just curious because I also talk about sabbaticals when I do these talks. And sabbatical, people will think of going away for a year. But in healthcare it's that's a little bit. Hard to do 'cause we got our patients and all that. But I think it's really less about the duration and the intention behind it. Like, why are you doing this? It's really to recharge and disconnect so that you can come back stronger. but yeah, I'm always thinking about how do I make this more approachable for people? Because it's just taking

Riyad 35:30

Makes it tough.

Fred H. Cho 35:31

I do love that pit stop idea because it just. It makes it a bit more approachable for people to say, okay,

Riyad 35:38

Yeah.

Fred H. Cho 35:39

stop, but it's there for me to

Sophia Leung 35:41

Mm-hmm

Fred H. Cho 35:42

and

Riyad 35:43

I like, yeah, and

Sophia Leung 35:45

Yeah

Riyad 35:45

the name. Pit stop for me, it makes me think about like when you think about like racing or F1 racing, it's like they put new tires on it, refreshes the car, kinda gets it going. So like I like the idea of the refreshing your mind type of thing and kind of kinda recharging those batteries in the car and getting it out again there as well. I think that's super important as well.

Fred H. Cho 36:04

Yeah. Yeah.

Sophia Leung 36:05

Yeah for sure I'll have to give credit

Riyad 36:07

Okay. Okay.

Sophia Leung 36:08

one

Riyad 36:09

Yeah.

Sophia Leung 36:09

let's call these pit

Fred H. Cho 36:10

that's really good.

Riyad 36:10

I like that. Yeah.

Sophia Leung 36:12

Yeah

Riyad 36:12

Just actually touching on that same idea you definitely have lots going on and I know continually expanding and staying curious. New credentials, new rules, new platforms. What about the other part of it? Is there anything you've deliberately walked away from, or what have you learned about like letting go and just figuring out kinda what works for you there?

Sophia Leung 36:33

Yeah Yeah The the challenge of saying no more to say yes to the right thing that was a a a

Riyad 36:40

Okay.

Sophia Leung 36:41

I'm learning you know that was probably a a critical lesson to be learned still under development I would say but probably the biggest thing that I I said no more to in this Last year like definitely with the MB and Pty together was actually lecturing I I was before that on a plane every other weekend almost every weekend kind of somewhere else teaching on the weekends and it was fun I got to see a lot of places but it it also took up a lot of time It pulled me away from you know my home base I I you know I would call The hotel room home I'd like I'm going home now and as I'm going to whatever hotel room you know and so it became there was this this sort of mentality of just constantly being on the on the move and so yeah that was the biggest thing I pulled back was lecturing at least internationally anyway like anything that was like more virtual or closer I could do but that was that was the biggest thing And then also When you're a president you know you you don't want to give sort of the perception of undue influence from a company Right And so I had to I did you know willingly and I think it's it's proper to do so to step back from some of the more public speaking engagements especially when they're sponsored And so yeah that you know I can still do ad boards and whatnot but you know it it just just didn't seem right to go and and do like a sponsored breakfast and then like move into now sharing an ag GM it kinda just gives a perception that you know you know who are what hat are you wearing And so yeah that was kind of intentional step back from those things and I hope to reengage some of that after But it had I had to create space that way I also dropped the day of clinic I was doing four days of clinic and then leaving kind of some admin time for myself but then I dropped my Tuesdays and that allowed me to do you know like Tuesdays out of clinic for meetings and for catchup work and things like that And that also is very helpful for me to to to have you know even if I didn't have anything scheduled that that would be like a a breathing room day

Fred H. Cho 38:29

Yeah.

Sophia Leung 38:29

so

Fred H. Cho 38:30

Yeah.

Sophia Leung 38:30

helpful So and I think honestly I don't think I'll go back I think I'll leave the Tuesday off even after cause I've just I I enjoy it for just like I think my mental health I think having the day to breathe has been very helpful so but I'm still learning I think sometimes I still say yes to to too many things but you know That's that's been a a lesson and work in progress for

Riyad 38:48

That's it. I would say I would echo that. I think that's the thing that I'm learning the most as well, is trying to figure out, I think it's just priorities, what you prioritize, what you don't. And it's so funny 'cause I took a day off of work. I remember, so I started with four days and I took a Friday off and I'm like, that's the day I'm just gonna relax. I catch up on things and now my Fridays are always filled with like random stuff. So I'm like, do I now take another day off and but then, yeah, it gets busier and busier as you go. There's always stuff going on there as well.

Sophia Leung 39:15

Tuesdays and

Riyad 39:16

okay. I'm

Sophia Leung 39:17

off.

Riyad 39:17

the Tuesday's very tempting. You're tempting me now. Okay, perfect. I would love to end with a kind of self-reflection question too, and that's just something we ask all our guests and I'm actually really curious to hear your answer because you've done so much and you experienced so much and this kinda echoes that question. So what is work happiness to you now at this stage of your career? What does it look like?

Sophia Leung 39:37

Work happiness. Huh?

Fred H. Cho 39:39

It's a tough question. Yeah,

Sophia Leung 39:41

it, I, Yeah, I guess it depends on how, how I would define work, I suppose. Right. You know, there's always this idea is work clinic is work research is work lecturing, and I, I,

Riyad 39:52

Yeah, for sure.

Sophia Leung 39:53

of encompasses all of that. Right? And, and I think that, I find there's lots of things I enjoy, but work happiness. Maybe look at it as like. I was listening to a podcast called The Mighty Podcast, and it was actually talking about, it was all sorts of things, but it was talking about the Harvard study on happiness actually. And it boiled it down to a couple sort of key factors, but really it was about knowing meaning and purpose. And I would maybe apply that to. What, whatever work means for me, you know, if whatever I'm committed to and putting energy in for work, if I find that there's meaning there and there's purpose there, then I'm happy. I'm, I'm content or, or joyful about it. Where I find work feels draining, exhausting, and, and sometimes like thankless almost, is when I, I don't really know. Why I am doing it and what it's for. I think if I even just kind of like saying it out loud, I'm like, gosh, that just sounds so miserable. So you know, whether it's in the clinic I'm at right now and, and kind of, you know, continue to build up a referral practice or hoping that, you know, to get the, the a a o to, you know, continue to be a good resource for members or. You know, maybe, you know, seeing the, you know, level of optometry continuing to rise in Canada, all that to me is, is meaningful work right now and it is, you know, worth the effort and energy. So maybe, yeah, that, you know, if I can still find a good meaning and purpose in it then and, and hopefully, you know, to be able to see some progress. Right. Yeah, and I think, and I think also to see other people also get to grow in it too. it's not just for me alone, that other people get to also benefit. I think I would describe that

Riyad 41:23

Okay.

Sophia Leung 41:23

happy.

Riyad 41:23

Even going back to the last question of what you say yes and no to it can, I was just thinking about that. I'm like, oh, now if there's meaning and purpose to it, then maybe it's a yes, and if not, then maybe it's a no. So no, I like that

Sophia Leung 41:35

Right.

Fred H. Cho 41:36

It's great because work happiness has so many different perspectives on it too, and I, we definitely need a second episode with

Riyad 41:46

for sure.

Fred H. Cho 41:47

you have a lot of ideas that I love to just dive more into and tease apart because having these conversations allows us to. Break through new insights and just I think we need to study you more. Like how, like what is work,

Riyad 41:59

How does the brain, how does her brain work?

Sophia Leung 42:02

I'd love So fun. I

Fred H. Cho 42:03

yeah.

Sophia Leung 42:03

back again, for

Riyad 42:04

Okay, perfect. Thank you for being on and yeah, we're definitely excited to have you on again there. That's perfect. Thank you.

Sophia Leung 42:11

All right. Thank you both for having

Fred H. Cho 42:12

Alright.

Riyad 42:12

time. Alright.